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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Apr 21, 2008 16:13:32 GMT
Not a good start to a Monday. Trust the first pint went down without touching the side!!
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Apr 21, 2008 21:51:25 GMT
Dear Sibod, I'm sorry to hear about your continuing troubles commuting. I suspect the locking out of 2 coaches due to a flooded toilet was done (correctly) due to fire regulations. Obviously the coach with the defective loo was locked out. Would I be correct in suspecting the adjacent coach with a driving cab was also locked out too? This is because if a fire broke out in that coach (in the coach with the cab), there would be no direct route of escape as the corridor to the coach with defective toilet would be locked. Obviously, this becomes completely academic on an overcrowded rush hour train, but rules are rules - unfortunately. If something did happen, then the driver (or whoever was responsible for locking out BOTH coaches) would end up in court on a charge of manslaughter for not doing their job properly. On the railway, common sense is rarely allowed to be applied. The knock on effect was that this train was held at Waterloo East while they wated for medical assistance from an ambulance, and 300 other passengers crammed themselves onto the platform to try and catch another train to Charing Cross. Presumably subsequent services were also severely delayed. Common sense dictates that several hings should be im place to prevent such things from happening: 1. Why dont SET hold spare rolling stock for obvious problems like this? 2. These Networkers are seriously deficient. This is the 3rd time a carriage has been locked in the last 2 months. either doors failing or whole carriages locked, just on my line. Why have then not been given a thorough overhaul? 3. What is the maintenance schedule? Clearly it isnt adequate, given the obvious unreliability of this stock. 4. Why dont major stations have emergency medical assistance on hand for these types of problems? Surely they should be able to treat emergencies with as little disruption as possible. Causing 300 passengers to cram the corridors along with all the regular comuter traffic is just insane. 5. In light of the extra traffic, why did SET see fit to force everyone to have their ticket inspected, thus slowing down the traffic further still? They seemed more concerned about preventing ticket evasion than preventing an accident! 6. Simply announcing at each station that these carriages were defective would have allowed people more time to move to other spots on the platform, rather than runnning in each direction in panicky attacks. These questions are rhetorical, as I know the answers already - clearly it's profit - profit before customer safety and comfort. As for the other issues: 1.) Rolling stock is expensive, in excess of 1 million/coach. I believe SET are short of a few Notworker units due to repairs due to vandalism and arson. As you later say, it's all about profit. SET don't want to upset the shareholders, and they also don't want to upset the government going begging cap in hand for more cash to buy new rolling stock. So ultimately, the commuter suffers. 2/3.) It would be interesting to hear direct from SET about maintenance schedules, unless any fellow dead engineers have anything to say about this? Sadly, my practical experience with trains is back in the days of steam. 4.) Quite simply, COST! To provide 24hr cover, you'd need, say, 6 members of staff working in pairs for 8hr shifts. They'd need days off, and also annual leave several times per year. Some will also go sick too. So you could easily reach 20 members of staff available to provide first aid, if not more. Taking the conservative guess of 20, each one would be paid 25K. That's half a million pounds per year paying for a service that you'd be lucky to need to use once/week. As Guys Hospital (and presumably A&E dept) is quite literally next door, it makes total sense to use them only as and when needed. 5.) It does seem daft that given the disruption, somebody felt it necessary to still check tickets. If, however, it was a pre-planned operation, it would have been a complete waste of resources. The application of a little common sense for 30 mins around the time of that incident would probably have been a better choice though. 6.) Communication (or lack of) on the railway is an ongoing problem, and realistically, it will never change. It seems like most railway office based staff endevour to do the minimum amount of work, and that includes NOT letting people know what's going on. At my driver seances, a common cause of complaint is "control" assume all drivers are psychic and are aware of the problems further down the line, despite nobody having the decency to bother telling them what's happening. It's only if the signaller calls them out of courtesy - or even to check if they sign the diversionary route - that they become aware that they are not to run as booked! Quite often platform staff complain of the same issues. This issue echoes the problem last week when the car collided with the level crossing on the line to Hastings. If staff at Tonbridge, Sevenoaks and Orpington were not informed of the calling pattern of individual trains, they are (no disrespect intended to them) only as useful as the information they are presented with. The lack of information from "Fraggle Rock" is a regular cause of staff complaint, but nobody ever bothers to address the issue. To put it another way, and quite bluntly too, if SET can't be bothered to tell front line staff what the hell is happening, then you as passengers have absolutely NO hope of being informed! At a seance last year, a driver told me that he was held up outside of London Bridge for ages, with no information flowing. He apologised over the PA for not having any infomation, but this was simply because nobody had bothered to tell him (I'm led believe it was a similar problem a few weeks ago with the FCC train fire, also at London Bridge). It's only when a passenger sitting behind him called SET directly on their mobile phone and then kindly passed on this information to the driver, that anybody actually knew what was going on! Reference an earlier posting from a few days ago, I was wondering if you could be kind enough to update on which line you refer to as the loop near Dartford? Kind regards, Richard T
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Post by sibodkent on Apr 22, 2008 15:28:32 GMT
Dear Richard:
I suspect the locking out of 2 coaches due to a flooded toilet was done (correctly) due to fire regulations. Obviously the coach with the defective loo was locked out. Would I be correct in suspecting the adjacent coach with a driving cab was also locked out too? This is because if a fire broke out in that coach (in the coach with the cab), there would be no direct route of escape as the corridor to the coach with defective toilet would be locked. Obviously, this becomes completely academic on an overcrowded rush hour train, but rules are rules - unfortunately. If something did happen, then the driver (or whoever was responsible for locking out BOTH coaches) would end up in court on a charge of manslaughter for not doing their job properly. On the railway, common sense is rarely allowed to be applied.
Perhaps- I cant remember. It was in a 8 coach train, so it would have been 4x4 formation.
4.) Quite simply, COST! To provide 24hr cover, you'd need, say, 6 members of staff working in pairs for 8hr shifts. They'd need days off, and also annual leave several times per year. Some will also go sick too. So you could easily reach 20 members of staff available to provide first aid, if not more. Taking the conservative guess of 20, each one would be paid 25K. That's half a million pounds per year paying for a service that you'd be lucky to need to use once/week. As Guys Hospital (and presumably A&E dept) is quite literally next door, it makes total sense to use them only as and when needed.
Frankly, they don't need 24/7 coverage, just peak time when things like overcrowding and delays are likely to occur.
Guys is next door to London Bridge, but St Thomas's is nearer, but it's not 'nearby'.
My point is, the passenger safty cord was pulled in-between stations, and they only thought to put a call out for a station doctor AFTER everyone-had piled off and flooded the passageway.
Frankly in this day and age, emergency staff SHOULD be there onsite in as quick a timeframe as physically possible.
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Post by jumpedup on Apr 22, 2008 16:39:16 GMT
I note Southeastern have announced the new timetable wef 18th May 2008.
A few minor changes and one significant improvement for Sunday services via Chatham.
The slow train will now leave Victoria at xx24 rather than xx39, meaning that there is more of a gap on arrivals in Medway and beyond. [the xx39 arrives only minutes before the following xx03 fast train].
To be commended, but couldn't they really improve things by changing the late evening services Mon-Sat in the same way. After 2100, there is only one fast and one slow train per hour at xx03 and xx39 and there is the same issue. Could the xx39 be brought forward - would there be any other scheduling issues here?
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Post by sibodkent on Apr 23, 2008 12:56:11 GMT
Last night saw another farce with SET's trains breaking down.
On my homeward journey, they train had to be taken out of service at dartford because the hand-dryer in one of the on-train toilets was unable t be turned off.
A fire hazard, apparently.
However, the service we joined to get to gravesend was also delayed thanks to a faulty train at Lewisham...
All these trains were Notworkers.
They truly are earning their nickname.
So - if ayone from SET is reding,; 1. Why are these trains still in service? they seem to suffer from far more faults than any of their counterparts? 2. Are they getting regular services? 3. They have not been refurbished in the 18 or so years they have been in service. Most have just had a lick of paint on the outside (mostly due to train company changing - Network Southeast to Connex mk1 and then Connex mk2...then Southeastern mk1 and soon Mk2 purple...) Why cant SET continue the god work their dept. of Transport predecessors started?
It is infuriating knowing that twice in a week my journey has been disrupted by a FAULTY TOILET!!
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Post by genehuntisking on Apr 23, 2008 16:05:38 GMT
Greetings pop pickers. So many issues, where to start first?
About a week ago there was a post from someone who was delayed in the Dover area about ten days ago. The cause was a lightning strike knocking out all of the signalling in the Dover area. Dover is controlled from Folkestone East signalbox, but does still have what is called a "slave panel" in the old Dover Priory signalbox. Network Rail managed to get this manned fairly promptly, but when staff got there it seems the lightning strike had blown several fuses there too. The first Network Rail responce staff then started what is known as "clipping up routes" (in effect securing the points so they cannot move under a train) and prioirty was given to a couple of trains trapped away from stations (one in Harbour Tunnel, and one stuck between Kearsney and Dover). Obviously the limited amount of staff they had meant this took time. From memory the one in the tunnel got into Dover around an hour late, and the one from Kearsney was somewhere around an hour an a half. By the timethis was done the S&T had managed to find the blown fuses, and after a short search for replacements signalling was restored about 20.30, I believe around two hours after it got knocked out. I understand there were replacement buses, but these take time to get to the affected area, and then take far longer between stations. If you have ever experienced a weekend rail replacement bus, you will have some idea how long!
Moving onto the conversation about locking coaches out of use, I'm afraid this is an area where train companies get tied up in knots by the relevent "safety" regulations.
As stated by others previously, for a coach to be available for passengers it needs to have access to another vehicle. So you get the extreme example in a four coach Networker of two coaches being locked out due to a toilet overflowing, on the basis of "fire regulations". The pertanent question is how many trains have caught fire in the passenger saloon, excluding arson (which I will come to in a minute), and is this a greater risk than cramming people into the rest of the train?
If arson is considered to be a major risk, surely no trains run, because there is always the chance someone could get on and maliciously set them alight? Particularly on some of the areas that South eastern run through! I try not to mention this too much, as I worry that someone will actually decide it is a good idea, and we would never run any trains!
On a similar theme, there is a Railway Group Standard that says passengers must be able to detain either side of a train in an emergency and be no less than 12 metres from a door to do this. Therefore if a set of doors right behind a driving cab are defective and need locking out, then the whole coach is required to be locked. To many this may appear an insantity, but there are lawyers poised and ready to roll out the "profits before safety" argument at a given moment. I would be the first agree that the Train Company doesn't help themselves at times. Only this week a colleague of mine was in fits of rage over a coach locked out on a 375 left to run all day by the depot on the premise "It ran like that last night". His response minus a few expletives was that made it even more inexcusable!
Networker reliabilty is another bane of life on South Eastern. These trains seem to have spent the last 15 years undergoing constant modification programmes. I had high hopes that the privatised rail company might hand them back to the leasce co as not fit for purpose, and invest in a proven reliable train instead. However this requires a timescale of 20+ years to make it worthwhile, and as we all know franchises come and go in far less than that. How many franchise changes have there been in the last 12 years? Unfortunately those of us who don't hop from company to company are stuck with these wretched trains U.F.N. It is worth noting that when the 465s and 466s were built they were "built to a price" and that shows. One of the bonuses of rail privatision (in my opinion) is that the Train Companies have had sufficiently rigourous contracts with train builders to ensure the trains do work, and if they don't the train builder pays through the nose, so they ensure they do!
Having seen both ends of the operation (having worked on stations) I would suggest that it is not that information doesn't go out to front line station staff, it is that there is a fault in the chain of command. Depending on what staff are on at key places on the area depends vastly on who gets to know what. I know it shouldn't, and bang my head against a brick wall trying to get information flows improved, but as I stated before, too many staff flit in and out, and have little "operating" experience. Those that do are worth their weight in gold! Unfortunately this is not just on The Railway, a friend of mine told me a story of his son who was believed to be "unambitious" as he didn't change the company he worked for every four or five years. They looked stunned when he mentioned his father had worked for British Rail and all its descendents for nearly 40 years! Some of us only change companies with the franchisee. So far I have worked for British Rail, Connex, (loosely) the DfT and now Govia.
Finally a quick and easy answer. The 508s on the Sheerness branch were a short term thing. There is an ongoing shortage of 466s, and with all 508s back from overhaul at Doncaster, there are now in theory six for four diagrams. Therefore often one spare, and Sheerness is the ideal place to go to release a 466, to try and stop so many short formed trains.
Hope this is informative, and of help in understanding some of the seemingly "bizarre" things that happen.
The Gene Genie
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Post by chapelwood on Apr 23, 2008 17:18:30 GMT
Genehuntisking wrote: "I had high hopes that the privatised rail company might hand them back to the leasce co as not fit for purpose, and invest in a proven reliable train instead. However this requires a timescale of 20+ years to make it worthwhile, and as we all know franchises come and go in far less than that. " Even if this was done, there are no sidings with fleets of better trains waiting for a TOC to hire them, and it would take perhaps three years to build a new fleet - even if someone was willing to finance them and the DfT was prepared to underwrite the lease. So the best we can hope for is more in the way of modifications to iron the worst faults out of them.
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Apr 23, 2008 22:31:19 GMT
Dear Sibod, Whoever decided to cancel the train due to the hand dryer they wouldn't switch off needs taking outside and shooting. In the toilet control cupboard, there is a circuit breaker labelled "Hand Dryer". Tripping this would cut power to it, and the train could then continue in service. If somebody wanted to be pendantic, they could lock the toilet out of use as an additional precaution. Applying my pedant's cap, Notworkers are only 15-17 years old. Our glorious government, inspired by the Great British Engineering that lasted decades that was the slamdoor stock, believe the Notworkers will also last for 40 years, so we are stuck with them until around 2029. As GeneHunt said in his excellent posting, they were built for cost, so just about everyone knows they won't last that long! Rumour also has it that they only had a design life of 10 years and were only introduced as a temporary stop-gap rolling stock until the "real" replacements were introduced. I suspect Gene can fill us in on this one a little further...? As for continuing the good work started by the DfT, the answer is quite simply: MONEY! If they were to bother to run a decent and reliable train service, there would be less spare cash lying around and this would infuriate the shareholders. As we all know, in private industry the #1 concern is for the shareholders - the customers/passengers are bottom of the pile of priority and if there's anything left over, then you should consider yourselves pretty lucky! Bring back British Rail - all is forgiven! Kind regards, Richard
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Post by Ryan Webb on Apr 24, 2008 17:10:52 GMT
Finally a quick and easy answer. The 508s on the Sheerness branch were a short term thing. There is an ongoing shortage of 466s, and with all 508s back from overhaul at Doncaster, there are now in theory six for four diagrams. Therefore often one spare, and Sheerness is the ideal place to go to release a 466, to try and stop so many short formed trains. Hope this is informative, and of help in understanding some of the seemingly "bizarre" things that happen. The Gene Genie Thanks for the information Gene Genie, got my hopes up for nothing then!
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Post by William Dargan on Apr 24, 2008 19:54:22 GMT
Networker reliability is another bane of life on South Eastern. These trains seem to have spent the last 15 years undergoing constant modification programmes. I had high hopes that the privatised rail company might hand them back to the leasce co as not fit for purpose, and invest in a proven reliable train instead. However this requires a timescale of 20+ years to make it worthwhile, and as we all know franchises come and go in far less than that. How many franchise changes have there been in the last 12 years? Unfortunately those of us who don't hop from company to company are stuck with these wretched trains U.F.N. It is worth noting that when the 465s and 466s were built they were "built to a price" and that shows. I was led to believe that the Networker program was a medium-term solution - the units were only designed with a service lifetime of 15-20 years (compared to the average 30-35 year lifespan of other rolling stock). Coupled with the new and interesting uses the current and previous franchise holders keep finding for them (continuous splitting and joining during service, max 75mph design speed running for prolonged periods on Weald services.etc) and the rather poor state of maintenance and really poor design of the units initially has meant that passengers and staff suffer at the hands of the dreaded Class 465/466s. I've lost count of the number of times my earthly counterpart has had to cancel, lock out or suffer with a faulty unit. No cab heat, cab windows that drop when going through a washer, carriage heating with two distinct settings - Sauna or Arctic Circle and traction packages that make an pensioners mobility scooter look 'sporty' ;D I think it says it all when, on delivery, a Met-Cam procured unit and a BREL built unit were coupled together, the driver selected Forwards in the leading cab, took power and the two trains tried to go in different directions! British Engineering at it's best....
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Post by Ryan Webb on Apr 24, 2008 20:18:19 GMT
All this talk about the Networkers is interesting. People I travel with on a daily basis prefer the nigh-on 30 year old 508s to a 466 - more room, more comfort and a gentler ride, especially whent= the rails are slippery as they were this evening. Sometimes I do wonder is SET will bring them back to the Sheerness Line permanently, especially as the 466s have a habit of breaking down, usually a motor fault or the emergency brakes applying - whilst at Sheerness only!
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Post by lenhamite on Apr 25, 2008 14:40:00 GMT
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Apr 27, 2008 21:44:52 GMT
Dear Ros
I and a number of dead engineers on this message board share your concerns about how ready the Train Company is about incidents such as this.
The Train Companies do have compensation schemes for situations where they do not meet "certain criteria" but the European Union has a programme in place to improve things for the whole of the national rail networks.
If you are interested in what they have driven the Train Companies to so far enter "Third Railway Package" into Google.
This is heavyweight legislation and you will have everyone's admiration if you grab the nettle to go through it - but be aware that the EU are going through sequential stages of making transport better for the public.
You were delayed for more than one hour so you are already entitled to compensation against the fare that you paid under this legislation and the UK interpretation of it.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by genehuntisking on Apr 29, 2008 8:25:27 GMT
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Post by genehuntisking on Apr 29, 2008 8:48:35 GMT
"There was one replacement bus to cover three cancelled services to Ashford/Charing Cross and it finally left Dover Priory almost three hours after the last train preceding the storm. I realise that it was an 'act of God', but some heat and buffet facilities wouldn't have come amiss since I and others were soaked to the skin from the storm. There was also a complete lack of visual information for people like me who are hard of hearing and cannot hear announcements."
While not wishing to get involved in a "he said she said" debate over what the staff at Dover did or didn't do, I am a bit surprised to find that there were three trains from Dover - Ashford cancelled. My understanding is that the 18.04 from Ramsgate (18.52 from Dover) which was approaching Deal when lightning struck reversed at Deal and ran via Canterbury to Ashford.
With initial hopes of signalling being restored fairly quickly 19.14 Ramsgate (19.50 from Dover) also went towards Deal, but again reversed when it became apparent it was going to be a lengthy job.
The next train 20.20 Ramsgate (20.56 from Dover) ran via Dover and on time when the signalling was restored from 20.31. I cannot find a third train that did not run from Dover - Ashford, other than ECS movements.
In addition there were trains that started at Folkestone Central towads Ashford at 19.35 and 20.25. These were the trains that normally return empty to Ashford from 17.44 Cannon St - Folkkestone Central and 18.30 Cannon St - Dover which terminated Folkestone Central. The second train from Folkestone Central was worked by a conductor who was stuck at Dover for a while, and who I believe travelled on a bus to Folkestone. Indeed Ashford were also asked to ensure that the 20.25 from Folkestone Central made a connection at Ashford with 20.04 Ramsgate - Charing Cross via Canterbury West due away from Ashford at 20.51.
All this information was sent out to stations, so I am sorry if you were overlooked somewhere, but it certainly wasn't for the want of trying to keep people moving. When I worked on the platform at stations, announcements were one thing, but you can't beat walking up and down the platform and asking people where they are trying to get to.
Like most stations now I suspect you'll find that the buffet at Dover is franchised out, and they had long since shut up shop and gone, and unfortunately the waiting facilities are in the buffet area.
Maybe some locals could suggest an alternative to The Priory Hotel, which at the time of my last visit looked in need of elements of refurbishment.
Gene Genie
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