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Post by Richard Trevithick on Apr 16, 2008 14:12:26 GMT
Welcome to the forum, Gene. As you say, keep your name private. I suspect your glorious managers are reading this forum and would be interested to know who has told us all - both living and dead - far more information than they could ever be bothered to put up on their own website... Kind regards, Richard
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Post by BecsFaversham on Apr 17, 2008 6:40:42 GMT
GeneHuntisking
Welcome. Do not be afraid of us. Like most people communication is key to everything. As with elsewhere in life there are people who try and communicate, help as much as possible (without bullnutsting) and then there are those staff who hide and bunker down as soon as problems arrive. Certainly the staff at Faversham station I find are very talkative and extremely helpful.
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Post by sibodkent on Apr 17, 2008 15:46:43 GMT
Hello all! Nice to see a discussion group for us kent commuters, the old BBC one, while flawed in design, was thriving. Anyway: Talking of timetable padding, I've noticed the service that leaves Charing cross for Gillingham at 17:32 daily, seems to dwell at gravesend for around 5 minutes. Originaly, before the most recent timetable update, it was scheduled at 18:19, but rarely ever got in before 18:23. Now they show it as arriving at 18:21, however, the announcement and board time is 18:25! It actually arrives closer to the original 'late' time, and just sits there waiting for 18:25. For some reason, it also regularly sits outside of Sidcup for about 2-3 minutes, every single day, suggesting that the timing is all wrong for this service. Essentially, they have added a total of 6-7 minutes to a service that, rather than averaging at around 50 minutes journey time (from Charing X to Gravesend), could be closer to 43-45. It infuriates me when I look at the timetables. Going TO london is often lengthier for us Gravesnders than leaving, and quite often the times vary from 45 minutes to 1hr 10 mins - that's a difference of 25 minutes!! If it was as straightforward as Fast service, ???Stopping service - Short or Long, then it would be fine, but no - it's all over the place!! Finally, the ticket barrier on the north side of the station is ridiculously congested. It takes several minutes to get out unless you cross the bridge to the other side, as 50 or so people are all trying to squeaze through a narrow doorway into 2 ticket barriers (or a 3rd that opens and closes very slowly as it is meant for wheelchair users), only to squeeze past customers in the ticket hall trying to buy tickets. I've complained several times to SET and they just seem to shrug their shoulders and say 'OK< we' open the gates sometimes'...". Surely when they refurbished the ticket booth they could have invested a little in widening the door and adding a ticket barrier gate???'. to think, in a year or so, Gravesend will have HS1 services to London going through. What will be the point of nobody can get in or out of the station??!
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Post by chapelwood on Apr 17, 2008 16:45:40 GMT
The 1732 Charing Cross to Gillingham runs close behind the 1721 Charing Cross to Sidcup, so probably has to wait outside Sidcup while the earlier train is checked to ensure all passengers have alighted and runs forward into the reversing siding. From Dartford to Gravesend it is close behind the 1726 Cannon Street to Strood, which has recently acquired an additional stop at Charlton.
I am sure that the 1732 could get to Gravesend more quickly if there weren't any other trains on the line. In reality the railway is very busy. I don't think even our resident dead railwaymen are timetabling experts, and it really is a case at each timetable change to make adjustments, perhaps to ease the timings of a train that had been in the habit of arriving late at a key junction, or to make changes where possible if a train has been seriously overcrowded.
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Apr 17, 2008 17:30:09 GMT
Well here we are then. What a total shambles. I have just taken two hours to travel from Tunbridge Wells to Orpington. Reason. a problem at Etchingham. Various reasons. Car smashed into level crossing, three killed. Car chase by Police, driver arrested. Whatever, a delay. At Tunbridge Wells, nothing but chaos. Nobody but nobody has any idea what is happening. So I ask for the Station Manager. He is at Tonbridge and not available. I am accosted by a driver from Hams transport who accuses me of being rude to the staff at Tunbridge Wells because I dare to ask for the Station Manger. I assume that Hams have been asked to supply replacement buses. What hapened thereafter is best left unsaid!!! Finally we are told that a London train will arrive at Platform 2, over the bridge. shortly. It is announced as High Brooms, Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Orpington, LB and CX. The time is 16.00 We join and at 16.10 outside Tonbridge the conductor announces that this service will terminate at Tonbridge and London passengers should etc. etc. We are dumped at Tonbridge. Passengers say they have been on the train for two hours from Hastings having been held at Robertsbridge for a bus service that did not arrive. Tonbridge is manic. So we, not me personally but a few of us, ask for the Station Manager . Not available we are told. We are informed by a "spare" train crew member that we should not create any further fuss as we have no idea what is happening and we are causing a "disturbance". The "disturbance" is because once again we cannot get hold of anybody in authority to tell hundreds of stranded passengers what is happening. Where is the wretched Station Manager? It appears after further "discussion" that there are no "spare" train crews at Tonbridge as they are all being used on services out of London. Finally at 16.45 we depart Tonbridge on a service that stops at Sevenoaks then London. At Sevenoaks we ask again for the Station Manager. By now there is a fairly motley band wanting to get to Chelsfield and Orpington. Once again a Station Manager is NOT available. A member of staff informs us that we should have stayed on the service we had just got off because that was making additional stops at Dunton Green, Knockholt and Chelsfield. Thanks very much we said as it disappeared out of the station. Apparently the conductor could not override "Doris" in time to tell us before we got off!!!!Our next Chelsfield flyer was at 17.20. So there are problems. This is just another example of poor communication. So things go wrong. Problems happen when least expected. Talk to us please. Of course we get angry, of course we have the right to demand an explanation. But please don 't keep on telling us that nobody is available and that nobody knows what is happening. This is 2008. Or am I living in another world?
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Apr 17, 2008 17:54:19 GMT
Sorry to be a total pain but I believe our clock is one hour adrift!!!
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Apr 17, 2008 17:57:23 GMT
I don't think even our resident dead railwaymen are timetabling experts, Blasphemy!!!!! Wash your mouth out 3 times with soap and water! My fellow departed colleague, Mr Bullied, has spent many, many years studying them. I'd consider him a true expert on the subject - it's a shame the modern timetablers don't have even a tiny fraction of his knowledge. I suspect he will be able to shed a little light on this subject for us... Kind regards, Richard
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Post by trainplanner on Apr 17, 2008 18:59:33 GMT
Ladies and Gents, as the name suggests i have been one of these people who undertakesregualr practice in the dark art of timetabling. I admit as a living practicing specialist i don't have the experience of some of our more esteemed dead collegues, but i'm not too shabby with Protim or some of the newer bits of Software....
The conflicting issues that we as timetablers face in north kent are thus:
A lack of loops and passing places, where slow trains can pass fast ones
A lack of defined inner outer and long distance key stations, where services will be able to travel to fast or slow and then onwards to thier destinations
A lack of a standardised stopping patterns for key passenger flows, (such as that on the underground) caused by having to have fast trains stop at places where slow ones would normally etc, (which when coupled with lack of places to pass can cause fast trains to be stuck behind slow trains)
A high degree of complexity caused by three major termini serving a high concerntration of lines
A lack of grade seperated junctions permitting conflict free movements from being undertaken (the recent change in destination of greenwich london services from Cannon street to charing cross thus removing conflicts is a good example of resolving this issue)
And finally a lack of proper four tracking where fast trains can pass slow ones.
The specific example you highlighted is a known problem. a service which broadly operates in the same path but now has a high degree of padding to ensure it operates to timetable. thus when it is on time it spends lots of time waiting, when it is late, it either becomes on time (but has delayed and frustrated passengers,) or is gets very late and stuffs the train service completely.
Their is no simple equivilent exercise to undertake, but if you look at the approach to any main station from the air (google earth is a good one) and then look at the timetable to see the number of movements in and out in any given 15 minutes, and you will see the challenge. If you think you can do better, we can provide technical information available in the public domain so you can have a go.
We need to start from a clean sheet, and from the beginning of 2010 a new timetable which is a complete departure from the existing (which bar tweaks) is a derivitive of that written for the southern electrification scheme in the 1960's.
Weather this will be an improvement i do not know. Details are not generally available, but it should take the oppertunity to make operational changes which some may not like but need to be made, which should reduce conflicting moves and reduce padding at key junctions.
Furthermore NR has announced, that it will be looking in detail at each timetable and train service to establish where excessive padding is causing problems. and working out ways to remove it.
As some of our dead engineers will no doubt tell us, a slack railway and timetable will cause no end of operational problems.
Yes we all want shorter journeys, (me included) but some form of robustness needs to be built in, at the moment too much is and it is proving damaging to running a well functioning reliable railway.
I hope this answers peoples queryies on the state of the timetable. and why it doesn't seem to work, although in general it does.
How are peoples commutes going?
TP
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Post by sibodkent on Apr 18, 2008 13:11:52 GMT
Dear Trainplanner:
One does not necessarily mind a lengthy service (it is a reality that we cannot avoid this in todays property climate), I think that all we, as commuters, ask is that the service i as clean, comfortable and efficient as possible.
Why, for example, are we having to put up with cramped, dirty, smelly trains? Why are our information systems so inadequate? Why do we have to suffer unexplained delays?
I would suggest the answer isnt to necessarily increase the frequency of trains on routes that are congested - but to instead decrease them.
For example, how about 1 12 car service from Gravesend instead of a 10 and 8 car service within 4 minutes of one another?
Design trains for commuting - with first class at either end, but have wide, accessible doors, 6 per carriage, with large areas for standing room, but lots of comfortable seats in-between?
Or how about have all london bound services stop only in major stations, and have shorter, shuttle services in-between?
In gravesend, there is room for trains to pass, why not use this effectively, instead of using it purely for freight?
How about using the loopline near Dartford more?
I relaise some of these solutions require engineering and expensive upgrades (I know Gravesend is one of those stations that hasnt got long enough platforms for 12 car trains), but I feel these areoptions that have never been considered, but could reap massive rewards in the long run.
Instead, they seem to be pinning their entire hopes on CTRL solving everything in one fell swoop.
As it stands, it looks like they will be very upset and disappointed...
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Post by vinnie on Apr 18, 2008 19:08:53 GMT
Dear sibodkent.
I know a lot of passengers are upset or annoyed about dirty or unclean trains but these trains leave the depots every morning washed and cleaned inside and out.There are also cleaning staff at terminal and principal stations and most trains end up back at there depots after rush hour for another complete clean.If passengers want the trains to stay clean and tidy throughout the day could i perhaps suggest they don't:
vomit. urinate. and yes defecate. leave newspapers everywhere. spit. drink some coffee then throw the rest on the floor. drop beer cans and spirit bottles. smoke. skin up. put feet on seats. throw fast food on the floor and seats. pull up seats and throw them about the carriage or out of the train. slash the seats. scratch the windows. vandalize the train. spray it. etc.etc...
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Apr 19, 2008 19:14:21 GMT
Dear Sibodkent, Vinnie has beaten me to it on the subject of cleanliness - and a very good reply it was too, hitting the nail firmly on the head. All trains are given a full clean (empty bins, mop floors, etc.) overnight. The problem is, the people who use the trains ABuse them in a whole manner of ways, as Vinnie pointed out. Cleaning staff at terminal stations rarely have more than 6-8 minutes to clean them, so generally the best they do in the limited time is to pick up any loose debris (newspapers, coffee cups, etc.) that have been dumped on the floor and seats, as well as emptying bins. Given their limited time available, they do an excellent job. They also have strict targets to reach, and are audited on their perfomance. Why, for example, are we having to put up with cramped, dirty, smelly trains? Why are our information systems so inadequate? Why do we have to suffer unexplained delays? I would suggest the answer isnt to necessarily increase the frequency of trains on routes that are congested - but to instead decrease them. For example, how about 1 12 car service from Gravesend instead of a 10 and 8 car service within 4 minutes of one another? The information system can be hopeless, especially at times of disruption. Unfortunately, poor communication within the railway has always been one of it's problems, and there appears to be no end to it, despite a few good willed peoples best efforts. A single 12-car in replacement of a 10 and 8 car? Where would the extra 6 coach loads of people squeeze in?! Better regulation would be a far better idea. Make the earlier train semi fast by missing out a few stops so there is a larger gap between the 2 trains would be one option. Alternatively, extend it semi-fast to Rochester (only stop at Strood) where it can terminate in the bay platform, and not affect the peak coastal services. Delays. A VERY interesting and extremely sensitive subject! The vast majority of delays, especially during the peaks, are (I'm prompting my medium to reach for her flack jacket as I dictate!) actually caused by "passenger action". This is people who ignore the other 14 working doors along the side of the train and insist on using the 2 closest to their station exit, and also those morons who hold the doors! This causes a knock-on delay at each station along the line. If people were to spread out a little better and perhaps walk an extra few metres to the next coach, loading and unloading would take far less time, and the trains would be more punctual. If you don't believe me, stand in a doorway on the way home one evening and look along the length of the train. The only solution to this problem (as people don't want to use the common sense option) is to INCREASE timetabled journey times to compensate for this stupidity. Unfortunately, making the journey times longer will upset 99% of people. If money was no object, then your idea of additional doors would be the perfect solution. Unfortunately we live in a world that's gone Health & Safety mad, and building a train with so many doors on the side would mean it would be structurally weaker, hence would fail crash testing. Not to mention, the increased costs in maintenance (which is also caused by idiots holding doors open for people who don't arrive on time!). To balance this argument (for the sake of my Medium!), there are obviously other types of delay. There are the usual train and signalling failures, trespass, and simply, bad signalling! The latter is becoming more common as the new way of thinking in the signal box is to run everything "as booked". Hence, signallers are afraid to do what they are paid to do (regulate trains) as if anything goes wrong when they deviate from the plan, they end up in serious do-do for trying to make it better for everyone. This is exactly why you may sit outside London Bridge when on time and be forced to wait 5 mins for a late running Thameslink/FCC train to enter the platform ahead of you, making you late. The theory is, if your train fails at London Bridge, then the FCC train will be delayed, which will cost Notwork Rail money, which means the buck will have to be passed to the signaller, who is being unfairly punished for applying common sense! Having shuttles would mean people would have to change trains to get to their current destinations, which would prove very unpopular! It would also create chronic congestion with people battling against each other to get to different platforms for their respective/required service. Cannon St does actually have a morning and evening shuttle service, which I am led to believe is only very lightly used. You certainly don't have to fight for a seat! As for Gravesend, I'm guessing as it's a busy station, it is necessary for all passenger trains to stop there. It would definately be a bad idea to expect everyone to change at Dartford for a stopping service. Ideally, the station needs a complete rebuild, which would include a terminating bay platform on the "London-bound" (up) side. Which loop near Dartford are you referring to? Or are you referring to the "Dartford Loop", aka "Sidcup Line"? As much as I want the CTRL to work, I feel you are spot-on with your assumption. Kind regards, Richard
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Post by lenhamite on Apr 19, 2008 23:21:23 GMT
Does anyone know what happened to the services out of Dover on Monday night 14/04/08. In the words of Fraser from 'Dad's Army', "It was a dark and stormy night", and I got literally soaked to the skin in the process of getting from work to the station. I arrived there at 18:35 hrs ready to catch the 18:52 to Ashford International. As I waited in the not very warm waiting area, bereft of any chance of a hot drink because everything was closed, the information boards gradually timed the train as later and later, then "delayed" and finally "canceled". For the next hour or so we went through the same fiasco with the next train, until that too was canceled. Finally, around three hours after the last train had left for Ashford, a single unheated double decker bus arrived to ferry us to Ashford and left just late enough for me to miss the 9pm connection to Lenham from Ashford and enjoy an hour's wait in yet another unheated station without a place to buy a hot drink.
Finally, having got the last (unheated) train to Lenham I walked in through my front door in clothes that were still wet at 22:35 hours just over four hours after I got to Dover Priory.
All this with no mention of any problem on the Southeastern website or anywhere else. Granted I am deaf and might have missed the regular tannoy announcements that completely ignore the principle of 'reasonable adjustment' for disabled people, but still......
Ros
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Apr 20, 2008 19:19:09 GMT
Dear Ros
Was this the evening when lightening struck the signalling between Folkestone and Dover?
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by lenhamite on Apr 20, 2008 23:17:31 GMT
It could well have been, but if so, that probably would have occured at around 6pm. I wonder why it took three hours to orgainse one bus in place of three trains and why I couldn't find any information about what had happened on the company's webisite.
Ros
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Post by sibodkent on Apr 21, 2008 9:45:47 GMT
Further to my previous post, and thanks t thoe who have comprehensively replied, I would like to point out the problems on my service this morning. I was significantly delayed and inconvenienced by a passenger safety alert whereby the train was delayed thanks to a commuter feinting, and needing immediate medical attention. Nobody's fault, you might think, but when you take into consideration the following: 1. The train had 2 whole carriages out of action due to a 'flooding toilet'. 2. They didn't bother telling anyone throughout the entire journey, except once people had got to the last stop before it was fast to london Waterloo East. 3. This service is already packed after Bexleyheath, at only 8 carriages, when ideally, it should be 10. So the net result was people cramming into carriages either side of the two locked ones, which in turn, caused someone to have health issues. The knock on effect was that this train was held at Waterloo East while they wated for medical assistance from an ambulance, and 300 other passengers crammed themselves onto the platform to try and catch another train to Charing Cross. Presumably subsequent services were also severely delayed. Common sense dictates that several hings should be im place to prevent such things from happening: 1. Why dont SET hold spare rolling stock for obvious problems like this? 2. These Networkers are seriously deficient. This is the 3rd time a carriage has been locked in the last 2 months. either doors failing or whole carriages locked, just on my line. Why have then not been given a thorough overhaul? 3. What is the maintenance schedule? Clearly it isnt adequate, given the obvious unreliability of this stock. 4. Why dont major stations have emergency medical assistance on hand for these types of problems? Surely they should be able to treat emergencies with as little disruption as possible. Causing 300 passengers to cram the corridors along with all the regular comuter traffic is just insane. 5. In light of the extra traffic, why did SET see fit to force everyone to have their ticket inspected, thus slowing down the traffic further still? They seemed more concerned about preventing ticket evasion than preventing an accident! 6. Simply announcing at each station that these carriages were defective would have allowed people more time to move to other spots on the platform, rather than runnning in each direction in panicky attacks. These questions are rhetorical, as I know the answers already - clearly it's profit - profit before customer safety and comfort. it didnt help that virtually every exit from Waterloo East to get over the bridge was blocked by building works, and it started to rain
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