High Speed 1 Services

[genehuntisking]

The North of London Eurostar sets on hire to GNER could only work as far as York, and I think Leeds. They were also limited to 110mph when working on the East Coast Main Line (something to do with current collection and the catenary on the East Coast Line). From memory only two sets were on hire at a time and made limited trips. I seem to remember that they were there partly to cover a mid life refurbishment of GNERs stock (both class 91 and mark 4 sets and HSTs). This led to a complete set out of use at any given time.

Since the refurbishment scheme finished and some tightening up of diagrams led to the Eurostars not being needed. I believe that GNER may have also hired additional HSTs off lease from Virgin Cross Country, but not 100% certain of this. With the 110mph maximum speed they also ate up capacity on the East Coast route.

Within the last year all North of London Eurostars have gone abroad, and are used internally along with four full length Eurostars sets owned by SNCF. In October last year one half North of London Eurostar set worked from North Pole to Dollands Moor under its own power with a match wagon on the rear, the only time that I recall a half set running by itself on the mainline.

Gene Genie

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

Dear Mr Trevithick

The Government certainly has the right to dispose of London and Continental (L&C).

A glance at www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/clcr0206.pdf might help.

The "Man on the Clapham Omnibus" suggests that L&C would be worth more if divided and the Government have also tried to place legislation to take normal controls away from the Office of Rail Regulation. Could this add value to the sale - and could it also affect the future ticket prices on domestic services to and from Kent?

A little digging around might well unearth a few bits and pieces to support my previous email on this subject...

NoL Eurostars are constructed slightly different to the "Three Capitals" sets and are passed for use between London and Edinburgh via the ECML (plus Leeds) and from Willesden Jn to Glasgow and Manchester via the WCML Trent Valley and Birmingham.

The GNER operation of three NoL Eurostar sets was a fixed term lease and required two of them to be in GNER colours whilst the third would remain in Eurostar colours. They were well liked by passengers. When GNER won the second franchise term they wanted to operate a staff special to Paris but SNCF would not allow it - even though it would be crewed by Eurostar. It is said that this aligned to protection of the Eurostar monopoly to prevent another train company's colours cross France. Is this true or false - I'll leave everyone to judge.

Yours sincerely

O.V.S.Bulleid

[Richard Trevithick]

Regarding different operators colours being seen across France. I've heard many things about the French and their way of doing business, and this is definitely one that's cropped up before. A few years ago, weren't they being VERY difficult at the certification game to allow the German ICE trains to operate over their rails?

Another of the bad stories I've heard about them is, although totally unoffiical policy for obvious reasons, they will NEVER permit foreign people to work on their infrastructure, regardless of how skilled and experienced they are.

Richard

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

You are right about the slow progress on ICE certification for the LGV Est.

Both France and Germany have a different approach to the market economy and it does imply preferential treatment to domestic companies. Foreign ownership of companies in some business sectors is still forbidden.

There should be an EU wide market place but the countries who want to move to much closer political relationships also seem to be the ones that are protective of their own domestic businesses.

In rail operations the UK tends to expect the market to develop strategic business whereas in Continental Europe Government works with business to a much greater degree. France plc will push TGV technology so that French train construction company Alstom can sell more rolling stock. Connex, a French company, bought the 375s from Bombardier, a French Canadian manufacturer. GoVex is Go-Ahead partnered with Keolis which has its headquarters in Paris. Guess who is the biggest shareholder in Keolis - SNCF - the national rail company.

UK Government and its biggest businesses are amateur next to France plc (and Germany/Siemens).

Yours sincerely

O.V.S.Bulleid

[heofgreatwisdom]

Good points but....I have to stand up for UK business. I think it unfair to suggest they are amateur. This great country of ours has many a fine brain researching and developing some of the most advanced technology in the world. I do agree that many of these fine brains and their subsequent ideas are stifled by lack of (any) Government initiatives. The people in power seem fearful of their own shadows and many certainly do not have the guts to make a decision. But we do still have the brains and we are, certainly in my eyes, still very professional.

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

Dear heofgreatwisdom

The UK has produced some of the best brains in the world but has singularly failed to support them as a nation.

In the rail industry it is interesting to note that Modern Railways (the industry professionals magazine of choice) ran a vote on the "Greatest Ever Railwayman". The clear winner was my old friend Sir Herbert Walker of the Southern Railway. He was chosen because of his delivery of "man management", "clockface timetabling", "progressive electrification", "budgetary control" and the creation of the "Southern Electric brand". (Brunel, Stephenson etc didn't make the top places.)

The Southern emerged as the world's greatest third rail network in the world and remained so until privatisation. I would add a later achievement as "the ability to couple anything to anything else". In the late 1960s the 18.05 London Bridge to Brighton, on a Sunday, was formed of a 4Vep (with electro-pneumatic brakes), then EDL (electro diesel loco) followed by a couple of vacuum braked vans detached at Redhill for Dover. On the South Western one service out of Waterloo had a 4Vep followed by a 4TC (trailer corridor unit) followed by a Class 33 Diesel Loco. The train divided at Basingstoke with the 4Vep going on to Southampton and the 4TC then pushed by the Class 33 to Salisbury.

Does the rail industry have any Herbert Walkers anymore - well the last "great railwayman" - Chris Green unified Network South East and produced generic rolling stock solutions at minimum costs that are still around today. Amongst them were the Notworkers built at British Rail York in 1991/3 (and ABB in 1993/4) to last 10 years - and are still around.

The franchise process is not based on business development but on a Government ministry dictating every measurable element - The British Railways Board in all but name - but without the commercial sense to start stringing together a supporting industry for exports to developing countries with acquired benefits being used in the home market. British Rail certainly did export via Transmark but was always starved of investment and became ingenious in some of the domestic solutions produced - push-pull on the Bournemouth Line and the Electro Diesel for example. Push-pull was said by other Regions to be impractical, taking too much time. Dual sourced traction was laughed at as well. Now high-speed push pull is common place and dual traction source has been adopted in a number of European countries and part of the latest ITT for long distance trains in the UK (40 years after invention).

So go back to my original assertion, we are an inventive nation that IS let down by successive Governments that seem hell-bent on allowing effective state industries from other countries to enter the market whilst not supporting UK industry getting into those countries - if necessary by forcing the issues via the EU.

Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid

[robbierunciman]

Agree with the point above - hard to believe that we once built trains in the UK.

The problem is that we always hear how much a railway or railway vehicles cost - particularly how much more than expected, this is compared against how much fare it will raise and a grudging allowance is then made for social benefit. Road building is not so thoroughly examined. A colleague of mine who worked in Dft for a short time saw the model they use to justify new roads and said that many of the 'benefits' have little evidence to back them up. This is annoying, when new road projects often cost considerably more than expected, yet no publicity is given to this scandal and no one has implemented extra charging to choke off demand - no we build another lane, then another....

I recently read on a newspaper website that the Government and the Scottish executive are talking about a HS line to Scotland again - altho' the Scots are said to be unhappy that they might have to contribute to the line in England North of Yorkshire because of the power demand.

Returning to our own area, a colleague who uses KX from Cambridge tells me that they often close the tube because of overcrowding. I recently cycled from KX to Westminister - 20 mins and 'hair raising' is best description of the road conditions.

[heofgreatwisdom]

Ladies and Gentlemen, good morning. Picked a copy of "yourashford" this week and an article on HS1 quotes" will cut journey times to London from towns such as Ashford, Canterbury, Folkestone and Ramsgate by around one half of the existing timetable" There is more, equally
fanatical text. Who writes this stuff? More important - at the required speeds will Stumpy survive the G-forces?

[stumpyuk]

im willing to try - however i dont think its quite going to be as fast as they make out - particularly with the enforced 10 mins at ashford for the couple/decouple irritating fiasco

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

Dear All

The hype for CTRL-DS services is going to increase as time passes - GoVex have a franchise to operate at a profit.

The term "London" will become increasingly interesting and the use of "Average Journey Times" for present services will be milked for all it's worth.

If St Pancras is to be known as "London" then so should any "Southern" terminal plus Waterloo and Elephant & Castle.

Current GoVex taunts on 2009 journey times are shown below together with the fastest historic journey times from "London" to the same stations: -
---------------2009
Ashford......37 mins.....57 mins (2008 - Waterloo East)
Canterbury...61 mins.....76 mins (1962 - Cannon Street)
Chatham......43 mins.....39 mins (1976 - Cannon Street)
Dover........74 mins.....87 mins (1976 - Waterloo East)
Ebbsfleet....17 mins.....35 mins (1936 - Gravesend from London Bridge)
Folkestone...63 mins.....75 mins (1976 - Waterloo East)
Faversham....66 mins.....59 mins (1976 - Cannon Street)
Margate......98 mins.....86 mins (1962 - Cannon Street)
Ramsgate.....86 mins.....96 mins (1976 - Waterloo East)
[/b]
For comparison purposes there should be a comparative Underground journey for people who presently walk to the comparative station as well as a statement on the number of occasions that Kings Cross/St Pancras Underground is temporarily closed due to volume of passengers (75% of passengers use the Underground compared to much lower proportions for traditional "Southern" terminals).

Passengers, I am sure, will not be made aware of the inconveniences for journeys into Central London that will, from next year, involve an additional Underground journey when they can presently walk. It isn't just for commuters but, for example, for theatre goers Charing Cross is between 5 and 10 minutes walk.

Am I totally against the ChavLive service? - No it will certainly improve connections with the Midlands, North of England and Scotland but at the same time it will make journeys to Central London, Hampshire, Surrey and Sussex much worse.

GoVex are quite right to publicise it new ChavLine service but should seek to properly service and advertise better services to terminals just north of the Thames that provide better seamless access to the vast majority of most needed destinations. If the Southern Region of British Rail was able to supply more and faster services 30 - 40 years ago then GoVex should be able to improve on them now with the newer rolling stock.

(GoVex should not forget that Whitstable station to Meopham station is 49 minutes by car and there will be a train each 30 minutes to Victoria. If the classic service is made slower then Swanley station is only 62 minutes from Dover station. This type of alternative journey comparison will, I have no doubt, be used by journalists when the services are unveiled and criticism of GoVex starts.)

Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid

[moggycat]

Jun 7, 2008 9:55:04 GMT O.V.S.Bulleid said:

Folkestone...63 mins.....75 mins (1976 - Waterloo East)

(GoVex should not forget that Whitstable station to Meopham station is 49 minutes by car and there will be a train each 30 minutes to Victoria. If the classic service is made slower then Swanley station is only 62 minutes from Dover station. This type of alternative journey comparison will, I have no doubt, be used by journalists when the services are unveiled and criticism of GoVex starts.)

Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid

OVS I am concerned that people will not realise until after this has been implemented by which time it will to too late for those of us who are saddled with it. Once they have implemented it they will have to make it 'work' though I really can't see how they can seriously expect thousands of customers to go along with it.

Does anyone know of any more lobbying going on? I have tried but think SE know me now and just disregard anything I raise with them.

And I tried with the MP Michael Howard and got nowhere.

So for me from next year I will fight my way to Cannon St or Ldn Bridge via Tonbridge (getting more overcrowded each day at the moment) or Waterloo/London Bridge. Unless anyone can suggest a better route?

It's just not worth using the new service - time saving of 12 minutes for 33% extra fare and underground on top - just to get to my office in Fenchurch St.

You refer to 'Fawkham Junction' and other places I know nothing about but once or twice when things have been delayed they have run the morning train from Ashford to Cannon St with a couple of stops (Maidstone and Otford I think) and it rejoined the usual route near Chislehurst. This was very quick. I would definitely use this if they were to offer this from Ashford instead of via Tonbridge. Any thoughts?

[chapelwood]

Jun 9, 2008 16:04:51 GMT moggycat said:

You refer to 'Fawkham Junction' and other places I know nothing about but once or twice when things have been delayed they have run the morning train from Ashford to Cannon St with a couple of stops (Maidstone and Otford I think) and it rejoined the usual route near Chislehurst. This was very quick. I would definitely use this if they were to offer this from Ashford instead of via Tonbridge. Any thoughts?

The Maidstone East route is a couple of miles further and several minutes slower than the usual Tonbridge route - slow because of speed restrictions, especially at Maidstone East, Otford Junction, Swanley, and Chislehurst Junction.

Mr Bulleid is advocating use of Javelin trains taking the High Speed 1 line from Ashford as far as Southfleet, then transferring to the Chatham line at Fawkham Junction, which is between Longfield and Farningham Road. Eurostars used this route when the first part of High Speed 1 opened, as they still used Waterloo International until St Pancras International opened last year.

Although Mr Bulleid makes a good argument, I cannot see Southeastern taking up his suggestion. Only 29 Javelin units have been ordered, so to use them to Cannon Street would mean reducing the number running to St Pancras, as well as reducing the number of trains from other routes into Cannon Street, as there are no spare paths.

[William Dargan]

Latest Information provided to drivers:

Train Crew accommodation will be at Ashford, Faversham and Ramsgate, it is proposed to use the snooker hall building at Faversham which will be renovated proposed sites for Ashford and Ramsgate arc being looked at as a matter of urgency.

In total there will be around 110 drivers at all locations, drivers will be trained on CTRL rules and regulations, class 395 traction and the route learning of the HS1 routes.

The method of operation will be driver controlled despatch at most stations with CD/RA at St Pancras. Evacuation assistants will be on 12 car trains through the long tunnels from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras.

The subsidy for year one of the Southeastern franchise is £140 and by year eight the company have to pay a premium of £l5M. The passenger journeys on Southeastern in 2007 was 169 million, it is predicted that by 2014 passenger journeys will rise to 253 million which includes the HS1 and classic service.
Services during the peak are; St Pancras to Rochester (does not call at Ebbsfleet), St Pancras to Broadstairs (fast Chatham to Ebbsfleet), St Pancras to Ebbsfleet, St Pancras to Dover and Margate (fast Ashford to Stratford). The off peak and weekend services are; St Pancras to Faversham, St Pancras to Dover and Margate.

From www.aslef-ramsgatebranch.com/LSER-COMPANY-COUNCIL-

[jumpedup]

Jun 16, 2008 9:45:18 GMT William Dargan said:

Latest Information provided to drivers:

... it is proposed to use the snooker hall building at Faversham which will be renovated.....

Hopefully they'll knock down the eyesore rather than 'renovate' it.

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

Mr Bulleid is advocating use of Javelin trains taking the High Speed 1 line from Ashford as far as Southfleet, then transferring to the Chatham line at Fawkham Junction, which is between Longfield and Farningham Road. Eurostars used this route when the first part of High Speed 1 opened, as they still used Waterloo International until St Pancras International opened last year.

Although Mr Bulleid makes a good argument, I cannot see Southeastern taking up his suggestion. Only 29 Javelin units have been ordered, so to use them to Cannon Street would mean reducing the number running to St Pancras, as well as reducing the number of trains from other routes into Cannon Street, as there are no spare paths.

Well - yes I still maintain that there is a long period for migration from one service use to another when there are a number of imponderables. GoVex, to some extent agree and their own published assumptions are that in 2009 there will be 2m peak passengers per annum and 1m off peak passengers. The following (full) year it will be 14m and 5m. 2011 will see 15m and 5m and in 2012 - 21m and 7m. The final year has 23m and 8m.

GoVex quote on their website 145m passenger journeys a year and this agrees with their published budget. When breaking it down for classic peak and off peak passenger numbers GoVex show a continuous 109m peak hour passengers per annum and an increasing number of off-peak passengers of 2009 - 63m, 2010 - 61m (presumably those trying out the CTRL), 2011 - 69m, 2012 - 80m and 2013 - 94m. The business plan seems to be to attract new peak hour numbers to the CTRL and boosts off-peak travel in general.

Let us go back to the peak hour volumes on the CTRL. If the 2013 service is operated as 8 trains per hour (TPH) then the same passenger proportion of peak hour passengers would require 5 TPH in 2010, 5 in 2011, 7 in 2012 and then the 8 in 2013. Off peak the same calculation gives 3TPH in 2010 and 4TPH in all other years - or what GoVex have agreed with the DfT.

The migration is thus not seen by GoVex as being a migratory issue but one of releasing East Kent routes capacity from the traditional Southern terminals to North London. I see this as being fraut with dangers in that if there is no apparent demand from Maidstone, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells and Hastings to travel to North london then why do they see a willingness for East Kent passengers to continue to their existing destinations at no real time saving and at much higher cost?

It has been said by GoVex that they now see the number of peak hour trains to Cannon Street, Charing Cross and Victoria remaining at broadly the same level as now - but with some retimings. If this is the case then the number of passengers will continue to grow on the classic routes unless something is done to relieve it.

If GoVex themselves only see a need for 5TPH through 2010/11 then there is effective spare rolling stock for operating 1 or 2 Cannon Street services from Ashford via the CTRL and Fawkham Jn (near Longfield). These could be taken from the Ebbsfleet and Rochester ChavLine shuttles plus not operating ChavLine services east of Faversham at all.

Ah - but Cannon Street cannot take any more peak hour services will be the response - yes it can! In 1976 when the layout at Borough Market Jn was changed it handled 25 trains per hour - and it did so until privatisation in 1994. The franchise agreement only requires it to handle 22 trains per hour so there is still room for 3 extra services - and East Kent would only deliver 2. If passengers from East Kent continue to use the services that GoVex provide to traditional terminals then there will be no room for expanding patronage from Sevenoaks and Tonbridge.

Frankly the signs are there for failure - with no Plan B.

Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid