High Speed 1 Services

[DBDATCH]

Hello from a long time 'lurker' on the bbc boards ;D

I've enjoyed reading all of your posts over the last few years so I hope the conversation and information keeps rolling in!

I hope that the domestic service on HS1 is a success, although I do disagree with what appear to be large cuts to the existing services. It is just that after the many millions of pounds of our money that have been spent on HS1 and the new stock, not to mention the relatively brief use of a virtually new London Terminus, a now downgraded but refurbished Ashford, Nightstar trains and the domestic Eurostar sets, at least Kent commuters and leisure passenger will get 'something' to use at last without having to leave the country.

I am a little envious of Vinnie as I wouldn't mind having control of one of the new trains, but I hope that Deutsch Bahn will introduce a route to London using ICE-T so I can sit by the glass drivers cab wall and 'almost' be the driver ;D

If I may, could I also ask a question? Does anyone know what will happen to the Fawkham Jct - Southfleet Jct section? I imagine it has been 'mothballed' now, but now the track has been reinstated, it would be a shame if it isn't used for another 50 years...

Best wishes everyone and thanks again for the enjoyable read!

Datch

[Richard Trevithick]

Dear Vinnie,

There are a number of dead engineers on this site as we still have an interest in all things Railway, despite being a little past our respective sell-by dates! My good colleague Mr Bulleid has a very good way with words, and is usually able to offer more information in a far more subtle way than I will ever be capable of!! Perhaps he can throw in his 2p's worth soon..?

There is rumour of HS1 spreading north (presumably HS2, etc.), but I have it on very good authority (c/o a trusted source at a recent drivers seance) that it will not happen during the lifetime of the current franchise. So, it will be at least another 6-8 years (minus 3 days, depending on good behaviour!) until the earliest possible date for this to happen.

The only advantage I can see for HS1 regarding the North is the people in the Labour heartlands up north can now save some considerable time getting to Europe by train, whilst the majority of us down south will have extended journey times.

As for transfers back to your original "Classic" depot, I was under the impression this was only up until the very last day of 395/HS1 training. Once you had driven your first service duty on a 395, you would never be able to apply to transfer back. The next interesting hurdle will be to see how many drivers do take it this far before quitting, purely to get 12-18 months off work! Rumour has a large number attended the initial interview before dropping out, purely for a single day off...
Of course, this is all very different to if HS1 goes pear-shaped.



Datch,

Welcome!

Fawkham Jn - Southfleet Jn will be mothballed until the 395 services kick off, and will then be used for SET driver route refreshers into the "Classic" London Terminii (I believe Victoria is the one they have in mind) should the London Tunnels or StP / Stratford be closed for whatever reason. I know Ashford 'B' depot will definately get this route learning turn, perhaps Vinnie can confirm if it will apply to the other 2 depots?


Kind regards,

Richard

[barrygillingham]

I have no intention of using HS1 for work from Gillingham, even though I currently walk for about 20 minutes from London Bridge to the south side of Blackfriars (I can change for Waterloo East if the weather is foul).

It seems that the train will be very slow until it joins the new section.

It will be interesting to compare the patronage for the Faversham and Ashford lines. Ashford does at least have the benefit of being on the fast line all the way.

I would expect to use it, however, for trips to Paris in the future (changing at Ebbsfleet). In the past I used to drive to Ashford.

Barry

[Richard Trevithick]

One thought I'd forgotten to put into previous posts. Let's not forget that a significant amount of business will be thrown in the direction of SET in terms of ferrying Eurostar passengers from Ashford and beyond to Ebbsfleet to start the international leg of their journey. I'm not sure how ES will remunerate SET, but I'm led to believe there will be a nominal charge.

It would be interesting to see if this "private subsidy" for the rather pointless ferrying people around is included in the figures for passenger journeys and revenue generated, or if they are more "honest" with the figures and only include people buying tickets with their own money to Stratford and Ebbsfleet.

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

Dear Vinnie

Apr 3, 2008 13:07:12 GMT Richard Trevithick said:

There are a number of dead engineers on this site as we still have an interest in all things Railway, despite being a little past our respective sell-by dates! My good colleague Mr Bulleid has a very good way with words, and is usually able to offer more information in a far more subtle way than I will ever be capable of!! Perhaps he can throw in his 2p's worth soon..?

Indeed there are some of us who are well past life itself. We were all railwaymen, indeed I would go as far as to say that we were some of the best. We exist in the ether of time, unaffected by the often day to day misery of commuting but very aware of the issues facing the living on each day of their lives.

We do have Earthly contacts who reach us via the Séances of life and we simply try to help - either to explain something which may be a direct answer to a question or to provide information which is in the public domain but may not be obvious to the average person.

We use our best endeavours to provide accurate information that we hope will satisfy the question or comment in a way that is easy to read. Sometimes the answer would not make good reading to GoVex and sometimes it will - but it will be honest and any information will have come from an authoritative source.

As an example it was, some time ago, quoted by the SRA that only 3% of GoVex's passengers travelled beyond London. This may be true or false but it was stated. This means that there will have to be a significant expansion of affordable travel products to stations beyond London otherwise the investment might be considered to be poor as off-peak the existing services would have catered for the volumes. I believe that business will increase but at the moment it is just a personal opinion. Equally it is just a personal opinion that traffic beyond London to stations to the west of Kent - Surrey, Sussex, Hampshire, Doset, Wiltshire etc will decline as the DfT have thrown all of their eggs into one basket. I'll continue to delve and hopefully be able to find some statistics that might throw light on it.

So we are your friendly ghosts - not Casper but: -
Richard Trevithick 1771 - 1833
Sir Henry Ivatt 1851 - 1923 (and my father in law)
and myself
Oliver Vaughan Snell Bulleid 1882 - 1970

There are other railway experts available and they do an equal task of finding answers if they can.

Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid

[Vinne]

Dear Richard,

I would think that out of all the drivers that applied for HS1 there was the odd one or two there for a day of track,although most of the 'usual suspects' were weeded out beforehand.Some drivers were there to find out more about the whole setup,which is only natural.There are going to be drivers drop out along the way but again this is only natural,who knows i may be one of them.
I don't think we will be getting 18 months of work!There will be new rules, traction and route learning to take in,and a lot of the training only takes place 8 months before HS1 starts.The London drivers also have to learn the coastal routes.
As far as i understand it we get one move back to the 'classic' depots,but even if that changed i think the company would rather take on fully trained drivers with lots of route and traction knowledge and experience than someone of the street.

Regards,Vinnie.

[Vinnie]

Dear Richard,

As far as i know all drivers sign all routes,and the diversionary route will be to Victoria via sole street.

regards,

Vinne.

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

Dear Vinnie

Sole Street is my understanding for Faversham Line services but I understand that the link from Southfleet Jn to Fawkham Jn will be used as the diversion for Ashford Line services plus some empty stock - but to or from where I'm not sure at present. My expectation is that it has to be used to keep drivers' route knowledge signed off. I have often said that the Ebbsfleet and Rochester to St Pancras services should not run but a couple of trains from east of Ashford should operate to Cannon St via that route - which would have the added advantage of keeping such passengers away from Tonbridge and Sevenoaks now that GoVex seems to have persuaded the DfT that classic route trains should be as now during the peaks.

(I must have a séance with my EWS - or should I say Railion - living friends to see if they will obtain route knowledge for using the CTRL and the spur to Fawkham Jn)

I remain your obedient servent sir
O.V.S.Bulleid

[William Dargan]

Apr 4, 2008 23:14:56 GMT O.V.S.Bulleid said:

I understand that the link from Southfleet Jn to Fawkham Jn will be used as the diversion for Ashford Line services plus some empty stock - but to or from where I'm not sure at present.

As far as diversionary routes, all HS1 drivers will sign the route via Southfleet/Fawkham Junc.s to Victoria.

The original plan was to use Blackfriars as a diversionary terminus, however with the Thameslink 20?? program now sort of starting, that was switched to Victoria. Not sure about route availablility for Class 395s to use Cannon Street or Charing Cross - I'm guessing that the powers that be wouldn't want to start sending diverted trains anywhere near London Bridge due to capacity constraints, and some of the curves between LB and Waterloo East or Cannon Street are quite tight - there is currently a standing instruction that on approach to Dover Priory, no Class 395 may pass another train on the curve of the former Archcliffe Junction until some 'work' is done in that area next year.

[jumpedup]

Anyone got a good definition of 'significant'.

Article on Southeastern website re 150 year-old stations quoted below.

Could someone let me know whether it would be reasonable to describe the reduction from 69 minutes to 66 minutes (current fastest Faversham/London service compared with current 'indicative' service time) as a significant reduction in journey time - even ignoring the issues about which station the service is to?

Think this is the first time I've seen SET 'properganda' referring to HS1 services via Chatham in these terms on their own (usually they refer to via Ashford services for which there is clearly (!) a significant reduction in journey time under the HS1 services, though again taking the point about terminus locations).



------------------------------

Southeastern stations mark 150 years of service

May 9th 2008



Southeastern looks back at history as several of our stations celebrate their 150th anniversary. It is a reminder of just how long Kent has enjoyed rail links to London, and the dramatic improvement they have seen over the years.



In 1858 Sittingbourne, Chatham, Faversham, Rainham, Teynham, Shortlands, Bickley and Bromley South opened their doors for the first time.



In the same year Charles Darwin published his theory of evolution,Hyman Lipman patented a pencil with an attached eraser,and the first transatlantic telegram was sent.



The eight stations have since seen six British monarchs, 27 different British Prime Ministers, 29 US Presidents, 42 British military encounters, and heard 1,068 number one hit singles.



Today, Southeastern has 182 stations providing access to 480 miles of track, and all are currently being re-painted and re-signed to provide passengers with a brighter, more welcoming environment.



Many stations have been equipped with closed circuit television (CCTV), improving lighting and other amenities to make the experience of travelling by train safer and more comfortable.



From December 2009, Sittingbourne, Chatham, Faversham and Rainham will be served by high speed services to Central London, significantly reducing journey times.





Southeastern

May 2008

[moggycat]

May 12, 2008 15:03:36 GMT jumpedup said:

Anyone got a good definition of 'significant'.

I saw that they had not mentioned anything about Ashford and am desperately hoping this is because they will quietly scrap it. I have voted 'huge white elephant' in the poll.

Seriously I hope they have listened to feedback and will provide something into the City for those of us who need it.

Does anyone else think they have gone quiet on high speed trains lately? No spin or creative statistics and sweeping statements for a while?

Also I have noticed that the Eurostars have far fewer coaches than they used to? Yet we hear Ebbsfleet etc is a resounding success but are the trains just a fraction of the capacity they used to be when running from Waterloo/Ashford?

Finally I went to Bluewater shopping centre recently which seems to be in partnership with CTRL - offering two for one on Eurostar trips from Ebbsfleet - to fill those empty seats on the cut down trains perhaps?

Or am I being cynical?

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

Dear jumpedup and moggycat

As you can imagine I will reply on the question of CTRL ChavLine services with references to how fast trains used to be but first I'll simply give you both a URL to follow to check the formations of Eurostar sets: - www.thejunction.org.uk/flist_373.html

Now to the story as to how much faster the ChavLines will be.

jumpedup has noted that the 66 minutes journey from London is only 3 minutes faster than now but let us also consider how Govex wish to show how things have moved forward since Kent gained rail services to London.

In 1936 (72 years ago and with steam power) the services from Cannon Street were: -
16.45 first stop Faversham in 63 minutes
17.15 first stop Whitstable in 70 minutes
17.47 first stop Faversham in 65 minutes
18.15 first stop Whitstable in 73 minutes

There were other services that catered for Medway and intermediate stations. It is as well to note that the 17.15 service reached Margate in 93 minutes or 5 minutes quicker than the new ChavLines.

The route was electrified in 1959 and the services were then: -
16.44 Chatham (39 minutes) then Faversham in 59 minutes
17.14 Whitstable in 65 minutes then Herne Bay and Margate in 85 minutes
17.44 Chatham (39 minutes) then Faversham in 59 minutes
18.14 Sittingbourne (50 minutes) then Whitstable in 67 minutes

(of course at that time there was already an hourly direct service from Dartford and Gravesend to Ramsgate so nothing is new.

In 1959 the maximum speed was 75mph for electric trains but even then there were fast services from Charing Cross to Ashford taking only 56 minutes non stop from Waterloo. This was only 19 minutes slower than now proposed and certainly gives no better journey time when one has to reach North London first - and certainly didn't require any extra fare.

Even the boat trains to Dover Marine can compare very well with the Chavline services in that they ran from Victoria (close to the tourist hotels) in 78 minutes - only 4 minutes slower than ChavLines according to GoVex.

So it seems as though marketing are going through a dumbing down process to make everyone think how great it is going to be...

Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid

(P.S. is anyone interested in how many trains will run under SLC2 compared to the same previous years?)

[Richard Trevithick]

Hello Moggycat,

Even a master cynic such as myself would believe you are being a little cynical, at least so far as the "shorter" trains goes!

There are actually 2 types of Eurostar - there are the standard / full length 18-coach ones (plus 2 power cars) and the shorter ones which are 14 coaches long (plus 2 power cars). The shorter ones were temporarily used by (if I remember correctly) GNER for domestic services "oop-norf".

They are built in half-units (power car plus 9 or 7 coaches) and bolted together in the middle to make a whole train, so can't be shortened as older BR stock was. I believe FGW have recently been in the press for "unbolting" the bufftet car from their HSTs, which is possible with the older design of HSTs.

I was under the impression that the shorter sets had crossed the Channel and were now being used by SNCF on domestic services, but I could be wrong! Whatever the truth regarding the finer details of the usage of both types, I'm convinced that the full sized trains are definitely popping across the channel each and every day!

Kind regards,

Richard

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

My Dear Mr Trevithick

You are, sir, not half of the cynic that I claim to be.

You are correct that the NoL Eurostars have been leased by Eurostar UK to SNCF - and here is my claim to master cynicism...

Could it be that Eurostar UK do not want them on their books as a cost with no income when the Government wishes to split up London & Continental to sell?

Could it be that SNCF would like them as a short term expedient to cover some domestic services or is it a little darker and perhaps they will eventually bid for Eurostar UK so as to run the entire operation (and could RFF bid for the infrastructure to give SNCF a London terminal - paid for by whom? [guess]) No of course they wouldn't as that might be contrary to competition on rail routes and there would be no way that SNCF would wish this to happen - just at a time (2010) when the legal monopoly for running cross channel services ceases.

No, it would be just chance that almost all of the Eurostar train sets (you know - the only ones currently licenced to run through the tunnel) might pass into the hand's of an SNCF potential competitor.

Good heavens, nobody could be that cynical - but it would make interesting reading in the media if that was a deal done by the HM's Government to raise money wouldn't it.....

Now I wonder how good that guess might be?

Yours sincerely

O.V.S.Bulleid

[Richard Trevithick]

Dear Mr Bulleid,

I fear that you and Moggycat are on a par with respect to being cynics! ;D

Was there any particular reason why GNER got rid of the NoL Eurostar sets? Did they aquire some new purpose-built stock, or were services cut?

I was always under the belief that L&C was a private company without any state ownership? Assuming in the unlikely event that I am correct, do the government have the power and the right to "grab" a private company and sell it off? Or are they a majority stakeholder?

I suppose if they can magic up 2.7 Billion Pounds in the process, I suspect there is a strong posibility this could happen! Now, I believe that was quite a cynical statement of me to make!

Richard