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Post by jelltex on Jun 30, 2009 16:14:41 GMT
For Ebbsfleet passengers, most of the journey is through tunnels. For those from Ashford most of the remainder of the journey is over ground. It's just a minor point, I guess.
As for St Pancras; as a regular leisure user of the Charing Cross line, not having the London Bridge, Waterloo or Charing Cross options is a definite minus point. The option to walk from London Bridge to the City is a great positive, and at SPI a walk to the tube platform takes 5 minutes, by which time at LB you could already be over the Thames.
I chose to come back on the Javelin because I had been at Kings X and couldn't be bothered to go into the tunnels again. Having been anywhere else I would have chosen the cheaper regular service.
The first evening service was very well used, with most getting out at Ashford.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Jun 30, 2009 23:38:59 GMT
sibodkent made a very good point about going to Blackfriars via St Pancras with a £2 extra fare. Being naturally inquisitive I visited the GoVex website and enquired the cost of several potential journeys - all using the 07.13 from Ashford. St Pancras was quoted at £29.60 but the higher priced 1st class fare of £33.40 was shown as not valid. This simply doesn't make sense, either it should be valid or not shown on the response. Cannon Street was also shown as £29.60 via St Pancras and the underground with a journey time of 1 hour 20 minutes. Charing Cross was shown as 1 hour 15 minutes but the system could not return a fare via the use of the underground even though it could to Cannon Street. Houston - we have a problem.... It is, though, quite refreshing that GoVex have at last admitted that getting to the City and West End will be no quicker than using the classic services - so the journey will still take about the 80 minutes that they said would be drastically reduced from December. ( ...you'll just have to slow those classic trains down again...) Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Jul 1, 2009 6:22:47 GMT
Morning all. With such high -80% - loadings on the HS1 services to Ashford, are we to assume that those on the Classic routes can now sprawl across two seats and travel in comfort--at last?
HOGW
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Post by sibodkent on Jul 1, 2009 8:06:19 GMT
Morning all. With such high -80% - loadings on the HS1 services to Ashford, are we to assume that those on the Classic routes can now sprawl across two seats and travel in comfort--at last? HOGW Was on the 07:33 from Ebbsfleet (was the one connecting from Ashford. Packed again, but easy enough to find a seat. Last nights return was spars again. Train arrived 2 -3 minutes early. Arriva really need to sort out their Fast-Track service - it's got dedicated buslanes and starts from Gravesend, yet they sitlll managed to be 5 minutes late for the 07:18 bus! Anyway, I have checked the timetables and there is a Blackfiars bound First Capitol Connect from Stp, which leaves at 07:56 and 08:00, and takes 12 minutes. A viable alternative to the tube? It's about 3-5 minutes walk to the Kings Cross tube vs a couple of minutes dash to the FCC station. Shame there are no through connections within the station. You can get to London Bridge on the 08:00 train too - in 18 minutes. (That'd make your journey time approx 1hr6 mins with 10 minutes of interchange. That compares to 1hr16 mins for the classic service. Why they are quoting 35 minutes interchange to London Bridge on the National Rail website is beyond me. It's less than 5 minutes walk to the tube, and you could easily do it to the platform in about 10 minutes. Furthermore, with the direct tunnel opening soon, it could be less. Then the tube journey is 12 minutes according to TFL. That would be about 22 minutes added to 36 minutes, total: 58 minutes - about 20 minutes less than the classic service (but quite a lot more expensive!)
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Jul 1, 2009 13:35:47 GMT
As sibodkent suggests the ChavLine service may well be popular from Ebbsfleet (and Gravesend) because it doesn't stop every couple of minutes. It was 36mins from London Bridge to Gravesend 40 years ago - the trains only stopped at Woolwich Arsenal and Dartford - so actually quicker then than via North London now.
There is a real problem in that having committed to spending money on building the CTRL for political reasons they then had to look around for traffic to fill it - a typical government approach (just look at the impending problems coming from a decision made by the Border Agency that failed to consider "real life". Eurostar were never going to fill the CTRL and with longer check in times to supply 'personal spying (sorry lifestyle) data' it never will and business may remain with airlines - against the need to reduce carbon footprints.
The original financial tests for CTRL viability suggested that trains should only operate to Gravesend, Canterbury and Folkestone as that gave the highest return on investment. But the cost for the CTRL had to be paid back so the peak periods were filled by longer distance ChavLine trains that have decimated the classic network that can supply all of the off-peak capacity required and only require peak period capacity to be added. If the CTRL were allowed to develop as an open access route for commercially viable international trains with efficient border controls being on-board using wireless connectivity for immigration processing 'on the move' then we should be back to where we should have been - widening one approach to one West End and one City classic London terminals that become two level stations with additional platforms below existing ones - let's call it CrossRail - for metro trains with mainline services terminating in London (Thameslink should not be through mainline services but more like CrossRail in the distances from the centre of London that are target markets - to get more use out of fewer trains.
(I'll slap my own wrist for going on so long.)
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by William Dargan on Jul 1, 2009 15:23:00 GMT
My earthly sources tell me that the 07:48 Ashford-St.Pancras and the 17:37 St.Pancras to Ashford will now be strengthened to 12 car trains from tomorrow (Thurs). This is due to these trains being full and standing for the last two days!
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Post by Robbie Craig on Jul 1, 2009 22:31:35 GMT
the above was confirmed by an announcement on the 19h26
I tried it today - fantastic train, working air con, staff were pleasant and the ride very smooth. iT COULD become a habit if the cost was a bit less.
I caught the 07h13 and got to work on Millbank at 08h25. Normally I would have caught the 07h02 and been at work for 08h45. This cost £8.00 extra for the train and £6.00 on the tube. That is £14 a day extra for 15 minutes...
Man in orange bib, tricorder in hand, pacing up and down the morning a bit puzzling.
I sometimes cycle to Appledore rather than drive to Ashford: that will be tomorrow's experiment, according to the TFL website its only a 23min cycle to Millbank...
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Jul 2, 2009 17:01:33 GMT
Has anyone noticed that the ChavLine fares calculations have now been removed.
OVS
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Post by sibodkent on Jul 2, 2009 18:03:40 GMT
Has anyone noticed that the ChavLine fares calculations have now been removed. OVS They have updated with more examples: www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/index.php/cms/pages/view/325How is it that Gillingham, which is a good 15-20 minutes of travel away from Gravesend, getting a suppliment of £3.10, yet Meopham, which is equilateral distance to gravesend station, is a supplement of £6 single fair? West Malling, which is considerably further away, is paying £6.30! What on earth are they up to with their calculations? Also notice how Ashford to St P is £49 return - £10 more and you can go to Lille, PAris, or anywhere in Belgium!!! Southeastern need to seriously look at these figures before putting these laughable fairs out to our citizens...
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Jul 2, 2009 19:36:52 GMT
Yes and looking at the complexity of the fares table and explanation to passengers about what ticket descriptions mean what (and a first class ticket may be valid on the ChavLine services). It is fine for us deceased engineers who have no need to use the services but how are the poor real passengers going to work it out - and why should they if it had been thought through. ...and how did it get through Rail Settlement Plan testing before it went live? Now what did Rin-Tin-Tin have this morning? Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by Ryan Webb on Jul 4, 2009 7:55:11 GMT
I sampled the Preview service yesterday travelling on the 1407 departure to Ebbsfleet and the 1437 return to the capital. I found the train (395005) to be very clean and spacious, much more room at the seats than a Pendolino! The onboard staff were pleasant, and talked to myself and my friend about the Javelin whilst comparing them with the Pendolinos. The upgrade fare was £6.20 (£3.10 each way) on top of a ODT (£13.60) so it was reasonable, just a shame they aren't permitted to do 140mph outside of a tunnel .. Overall I am very impressed with the 395s, I can see myself paying extra each time to use them to and from London from December. I took some pictures of the Javelins at St Pancras and Ebbsfleet, they can be found at simulationexpress.fotopic.net/Thanks Ryan
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Post by sibodkent on Jul 4, 2009 16:04:06 GMT
Yes and looking at the complexity of the fares table and explanation to passengers about what ticket descriptions mean what (and a first class ticket may be valid on the ChavLine services). It is fine for us deceased engineers who have no need to use the services but how are the poor real passengers going to work it out - and why should they if it had been thought through. ...and how did it get through Rail Settlement Plan testing before it went live? Now what did Rin-Tin-Tin have this morning? Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid I've had a reply from SET regarding the ludicrously high fares for peak return from Ashford to St P. "Thank you for your website comment dated 2 July. I am sorry that you feel that the fares for the high speed preview services are too high, and I think it's fair to say that there are others who feel the same. It may be helpful if I were to explain that while fares were once based on the distance travelled, this has been largely superseded by pricing based much more on market considerations. You will find that similar situations to those that you have highlighted exist on all networks, regardless of who actually operate the rail franchises. I should also add that train operators are not free to set fares as they wish, as "regulated" fares (including season tickets and standard day return tickets, on routes where there is no competition to rail and where passengers have no alternative than to go by train, mainly commuter travel into London) are controlled by the Government. These comprise the majority of our fares and the bulk of our income. The only fares that can be set by train operators are "unregulated" fares (such as cheap day tickets). Having said the above, I will ensure that our Retail Manager is aware of the point you've made, and thank you for taking the time to raise it with us. Yours sincerely" Hmm, so the government think it's acceptable to charge a customer nearly the same as a international rail-fair to continental Europe? Off to the local MP I say!!
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Jul 4, 2009 21:30:06 GMT
Off with their heads I say What they say about regulated fares is quite true apart from the fact that government only specifies the maximum that fares rise at each review. This means that train operators are free to charge lower prices if they wish. but how many do? If they wish is a real possibility as where there are two ways to travel between stations (London - Birmingham for example) each company will take a commercial decision and may actually charge significantly less to attract the type of passengers to whom price is the driving factor against speed. Take a look at Chiltern Line fares against Virgin and London Midland. In other cases one train company will introduce its own fare with a price below the "Anytime" fare but add a restriction that it can only be used on its own services. Lastly, when an open access operator is allowed to operate trains along the same piece of track to a franchised service then it is lower priced. There is no competition in Kent and if anyone came along asking for the right to operate an open access service then GoVex would object like mad in order to protect its commercial interests. If the ChavLine trains were operated by another company then GoVex would schedule a totally different type of timetable compared to the one specified by the DfT - i.e. would negotiate to retain the faster classic services (all day) to compete on speed and make sure than the lower cost fares were well advertised. They operate both routes and thus will try and slow down classic services that might remain competitive and advertise only the ChavLine services to those areas in which they feel that they can encourage change at higher prices. Not commercially wrong for GoVex but totally wrong in the way that the DfT specified the ground rules. They asked the bidding train companies to consider that the DfT would expect much higher fares in exchange for the right to run the service - and turn a subidised commuter service into one which pays some profit back to the Treasury. They further gave the winning operator a unique RPI+3% fares hike potential using the same media hype that has occured elsewhere - but which has not been passed on to those rail users. One would hope that the next government will correct the monopoly and split CTRL from classic services into a new business that will encourage competition and through it keep fares down. Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by sibodkent on Jul 9, 2009 14:11:14 GMT
Well a small update on the HS1 ChavLine service:
So far I've been catching the 07:37 and 17:07 services to and from St P to ebbsfleet and so forth. Only 1 day in which there was a 12 minute delay in the serivce, when a test train broke down in the thames tunnel, and had to be rescued by an active train that was still in service.
On my train one chap was fuming as he rightly said a 12 minute delay almost doubles his journey time.
Nevertheless, there was little they could do:
1. It was a train that was being run in before going into service. 2. they dont have many trains available at the moment as they have to run them in first! 3. It was blocking a Eurostar. 4. They still managed to get a replacement train up from Ebbslfeet in no time at all - thanks to the bidirectional signalling.
I dont expect the service to have zero delays, and so far it's proven extremely punctual - leaving on the second it turns past the departure time.
Passenger levels at Ebbsfleet seem to be steadily creeping up - when I started using it there were maybe half a dozen people getting on, now there are upwards of 30 people getting on and off both services.
It's still the case that Ebbsfleet only trains are nearly empty - but that is to be expected - it's not easy to get to without a car or being within walking distance of a Fast-Track bus.
I've only missed one train - my own fault, but still managed to get home well before I used to.
Many people are criticising the pricing, and I think once they are presented with season ticket prices for a year at renewal, they may just choose to go back to the old option, and just top up occasionally with a supplement.
SET really need to review the pricing to encourage people onto this line!
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Post by jumpedup on Jul 9, 2009 17:50:25 GMT
Interesting reading the various comments. I shall be trying out via Ebbsfleet car park sometime next week and will pass comment then. From the foregoing my thoughts are as follows:
I know this is only a preview service (and thus occupation of trains doesn't matter that much) but you really wonder who will be on the dedicated STP-EBD shuttles in the peak hours. The last official document suggested they might be extended but we'll see. They surely won't keep running them if they are almost empty!
Pricing will clearly be an issue. I'm pleased that the preview services have an 'extension' type ticket for a regular season ticket holder (though note the comments re pricing and differences, Meopham, etc.)
Glad to hear the trains have tables at each seat and power supplies (the mockups originally suggested no tables at all - they must have been listening!).
Lack of Wi-Fi on a premium service is a mistake. I don't claim that it's not difficult given the number of tunnels etc, especially on the HS1 bit but it must be possible... How does it work on the Brighton main-line? Could they purchase transmitters that boost the signal in the tunnels?
Interesting that the Ashford trains seem to be well occupied (to the extent that they needed to lengthen one) - this bodes well for take-up of the service. Has anyone who regularly takes peak trains from Ashford noticed more space on the 'Classic' services?
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