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Post by William Dargan on Mar 30, 2009 22:22:34 GMT
My earthly contacts have confirmed that traincrew and rolling stock resources are being planned around a start date of Monday 18th May. Three trains up in the morning, three trains down in the evening peak.
No mention on how many trains are actually ready to go and certainly no mention on ticket prices/surcharges.
But then this is the railway - so don't bet on it until you see a shiney blue train with paying passengers on it!
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Post by Sibodkent on Mar 31, 2009 14:49:00 GMT
Any word if this includes Gravesend or is it Ebbsfleet only?
Regarding surcharges, one of the SET marketing bods was at Charing X a few weeks ago and he told me that they'd not be charging extra for the preview service until they launch proper.
Furthermore, I checked out where the SET trains would be coming into at St P.
They have their own escalators and entrance on the right hand side from the station.
It's quite some walk to the tube but they do have a tunnel that is currently blocked off from the public.
I walked the entire route that I'd be taking from work -
currently I travel into Lincoln's Inn Feilds via Charring X from Gravesend, which takes approximately 1hr 15 mins from station to sitting down at work.
It took me 30 minutes to walk to the escalators at the SET portion of StP.
The service is scheduled as 27 minutes for HS1.
In total I will save approximately 18 minutes.
If I go via Ebbsfleet, my hourney would be 17 minutes instead of 27.
In that scenario I would save 28 minutes over my current journey.
If I took the tube instead of walking, it takes 10 minutes on a busy day t go from Kings X to Holborn tube.
Travelling from Gravesend town centre to Ebbslfeet adds 10 minutes to the journey time.
So either way I will save a maximum of either 18 or 38 minutes.
Yes, that's a fairly significant saving if I catch the Tube, but on top of the train fair I have to buy a tube season ticket. (at around £3-400?)
Is it worth £1200-1600 to shave off between 18 and 38 minutes?
It's a credit cruch, SET! Get real!!!
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Mar 31, 2009 17:23:41 GMT
Surely the Premium Fare ticket on HS1 into StP will include travel on the underground and buses??
HOGW
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Post by BrusselSmarden on Mar 31, 2009 18:20:06 GMT
Dear Mr Dargan,
would your earthly contacts know where this preview service will run to? just Ebbsfleet, or beyond to Medway or Ashford? Potentially I will be arriving in St Pancras from Brussels on the evening of 19th May and continuing to Maidstone. It may be interesting to preview the service (out of curiosity, please don't beat me by e-vigilantism). I would of course give an objective opinion to the group.
Otherwise, if there is no convenient preview train, I'll be showing my support for the Brussels-Ashford service, naturally!
BrusselSmarden
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Post by William Dargan on Mar 31, 2009 21:09:14 GMT
No firm details at the moment - but given the 3 trains idea - I would guess that 1 train would run Ramsgate-Canterbury-Ashford, another Dover-Folkestone-Ashford, Attach to the Ramsgate service and run to Ebbsfleet and St. Pancras. The other would be a North Kent Service, either starting from Ramsgate or Faversham, and running via Medway Towns, Gravesend, Ebbsfleet and St. Pancras.
Unsure what the current status of the Stratford International Station is - the last I heard was that it was still being fitted out internally and the link between the International and Regional stations was not yet complete.
Presumably the Evening services will mirror the morning services in reverse.
Again - nothing firm yet, as only a small percentage of drivers have completed their training on the new units, and a large number have yet to sign all the required routes.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Apr 2, 2009 9:53:21 GMT
As indicated in my new thread about CTRL fares I give below the words contained within the Public Register concerning a preview service: - 4. OPTION 4 - EARLY INTRODUCTION OF CTRL DS SERVICES
4.1 Subject to paragraph 4.2 below, where required to do so in writing by the Secretary of State by no later than 30 November 2007, the Franchisee will provide in addition to the Service Level Commitment:
4.1.1 from 28 June 2009 to 19 September 2009 a twice hourly service in each direction between Ashford and St Pancras. Such service shall operate 12 hours a day for all seven days of the week; and 4.1.2 from 20 September 2009 to 12 December 2009: (a) a twice hourly service in each direction between Ashford and St Pancras. Such service shall operate 12 hours a day for all 7 days of the week; and (b) a twice hourly service in each direction between Ebbsfleet and St Pancras. Such service shall operate 12 hours a day for all seven days of the week.
4.2 The Franchisee shall not be in breach of paragraph 4.1 above if and to the extent that the Franchisee is unable to provide the services required by paragraph 4.1 because:
4.2.1 the infrastructure required for the delivery of such services (including, without limitation, CTRL section 2, platforms at the relevant stations and the works at Ashford depot) is not available (provided that such non-availability of the infrastructure is not caused by an unreasonable act or omission of the Franchisee); 4.2.2 the CTRL DS Rolling Stock required for the provision of such services is not available or has not obtained certification for passenger service operation (provided that such non-availability of the CTRL DS Rolling Stock is not caused by an unreasonable act or omission of the Franchisee); 4.2.3 of the application of the Rules of the Route; or 4.2.4 of a Force Majeure Event
4.3 In the event that the Franchisee is required to implement the option at paragraph 4.1: 4.3.1 the following shall be restated in the amounts and in the values ascertained by switching on “Option 4: Early introduction of CTRL DS Services” in the Financial Model: (a) the amounts of Target Revenue for each Franchise Year specified in the table set out in Appendix 2 (Target Revenue (expressed in real terms)) to the Franchise Agreement; and (b) the values of FXD, VCRPI, VCAEI PRPI and TRRPI specified for each Franchise Year in the table set out in Appendix 8 (Figures for Calculation of Annual Franchise Payments) to the Franchise Agreement; 4.3.2 Schedule 5.9 of the Terms (Fares for CTRL Domestic Services) shall not apply to any services provided pursuant to paragraph 4.1 above; 4.3.3 the services provided pursuant to paragraph 4.1 shall be exempt and ignored for the purposes of Schedule 7 of the Terms (Performance Benchmarks); and 4.3.4 for the period of implementation, paragraphs 2 and 3 of Schedule 8.5 shall apply as if the words “and by paragraph 4.1 of Appendix 1” were added to the end of each paragraph.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by William Dargan on Apr 3, 2009 14:20:40 GMT
Brief overview of proposed 'preview' service:
- Departing Ashford to St Pancras: 06:48, 07:13 and 0748
- Half hourly Ebbsfleet to St Pancras shuttle between peaks
- Departing St Pancras to Ashford: 17:39, 18:39 and 19:39
Stopping patterns still to be confirmed
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Apr 4, 2009 15:55:55 GMT
Dear Mr Dargan
The service seems to use a minimum of units prior to their franchise requirements starting late June - and is a good policy by GoVex as it allows them to obtain feedback on public susceptability to travel via North London with its long walk from Kent platforms to the presently overcrowded Underground platforms together with higher fares.
GoVex have rightly (for them) picked Ashford as the peak hour service will possibly benefit passengers on that route more than the one via Medway.
My feeling is that people will "try it out" and wait to see just how bad GoVex will have managed to make the classic service, so effectively taking away choice - and that may be interesting if any passengers push for this to be sent to the Competition Commissioner as being the DfT acting against the public interest by specifying the same commercial business to operate both services (unlike north of London) and then specify a removal of effective choice by withdrawing classic services that may have been more popular but were never allowed to compete.
How would passengers react to retaining the off-peak style of classic services through the peak periods - say: -
From Ashford at 06.33, 07.03 and 07.33 arriving Central London at 07.34 (CX), 08.00 (CS) and 08.34 (CX)
From Central London at 16.53 (CX) 17.27 (CS) and 17.53 (CX) with arrivals at Ashford at 17.53, 18.23 and 18.53
These services could follow the classic route and thus have no premium fare (there is still capacity through London Bridge and at both terminals as the peak hour service will be less frequent than 30 years ago). It won't happen of course because it would show up the DfT as being money wasters - no I suppose that has already happened when the Audit Commission gave their report on the CTRL and the examination of value for money in the train leasing industry found that the DfT were the only real guilty party.
The Ashford Line needs a couple of peak hour CTRL services to Cannon Street to guarantee the creation of spare seats for those passengers joining at Weald stations such as Sevenoaks.
Isn't it strange that peak hour ChavLine trains will split at Ashford but that the DfT won't specify 1tph off-peak to do the same thing - it would save costs between North london and Ashford and would allow another fast service to operate from Central London each off-peak hour without increasing costs.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by William Dargan on May 8, 2009 17:24:05 GMT
Preview Timetable: Preview Fares: Now looking like a June start for the Preview service, as none of the 395's have made it to 4000miles fault-free running
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 8, 2009 22:50:32 GMT
Very interesting Mr Dargan
This suggests that the marketing people are trying out a 25% supplement for Ebbsfleet and a 16.5% one for Ashford. This is slightly lower than the sum shown in the consultation documents and that may indicate that GoVex are starting to perceive a problem with getting people to use the ChavLine trains when they go into fleet operation in December.
I have looked at the draft service from/to Ashford and it is interesting that the classic trains depart Charing Cross about 30 minutes before the ChavLine trains leave St Pancras and arrive just behind them. Now being on the scurrilous side I also looked at the TfL journey planner to see how long that takes from the classic terminals to get to St Pancras - and then added 5 minutes to allow for some time to account for slight delays on the underground etc - you also have to arrive before the barriers close so actual departure time is not good enough. In fact the journey time from the centres of activity close to the Thames - mainly Westminster and The City - is not very different from continuing to use Charing Cross, Waterloo, Cannon St and London Bridge - less than 10 minutes.
My present view is that the differential in fares will have to be much less than you show for the Preview Service or people will very quickly find that out and will then discover that the present fast services from Charing Cross would actually be quicker - if they still operated. This will then start a pressure to restart them.
GoVex are going to have to crunch the figures some more in order to get it right - and it will be interesting to see what emerges in business terms when considering the economic downturn and Lord Adonis' line of not renegotiating the contract. He could, though, change the basis of the franchise (to get GoVex off the hook) and offer it up as a new contract with different requirements on different terms.
Thank you again for some very interesting information.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by chapelwood on May 9, 2009 9:02:15 GMT
My present view is that the differential in fares will have to be much less than you show for the Preview Service or people will very quickly find that out and will then discover that the present fast services from Charing Cross would actually be quicker - if they still operated. This will start a pressure to restart them. There's a telling bit in the draft RUS, although it's looking some years ahead: "8.10.5 The following interventions could be considered to maximise the number of passengers using the High Speed line Chapelwood
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 9, 2009 10:01:25 GMT
Dear chapelwood
Indeed, I had missed that point in the RUS for the longer term, thank you.
My feeling is that there are two markets, peak and off peak. Peak period passengers are tied to their destination and also tied for disposable income. If a train takes longer, experience on other commuter routes suggests that the passengers will complain about slower journey times rather than spend more of their taxed income on simply getting to work. Over time it could start to self correct as other jobs are taken up (driven by personal career development) but even then the best opportunities and the highest number of jobs available at London rates are in Westminster, City and in future the northern part of Southwark. All of this points to little change in commuting habits and to try and increase the number of passengers going to a station at which only 25% of arrivals walk to their offices - against 80% at Cannon Street and 70% and Charing Cross and Victoria - is simply adding to the queues at the tube barriers at St Pancras then overcrowded tube trains.
Logically one would have to operate a "hassle" reduction in fare or an automatic access to Zone 1 of the tube as part of the CTRL ticket (as suggested by another member of this board).
I have suggested a number of times that there is a need to remove passengers from the overcrowded Sevenoaks/Tonbridge section and the way to do that is to remove some of the CTRL trains from St Pancras and send them to a Southern terminal. This can be achieved by restricting the service length - terminate at Gillingham (instead of Faversham) for example and stopping the Ashford line trains at Ebbsfleet during peaks. This would give a couple of trains to/from Cannon Street/Victoria via Southfleet Jn/Fawkham Jn from the Ashford direction during the peaks - leaving the bulk of classic services on the Chatham line as they are with 3tph on both routes - or better still 4tph which is practical, looking at the current draft timetable.
Off peak there isn't a capacity problem so running the St Pancras service as 2tph to Ashford and 2tph to Gillingham will suffice and allow for 4tph Chatham to/from Victoria without significantly increasing train miles (if at all).
Perhaps the ultimate answer is for the franchise to be split in two, also previously suggested, and different operators be allowed to compete for London business in an open market (with a few rules about neutral biased guaranteed paths through operational pinch points - probably only Medway in truth. This works on the ECML, WCML and MML so why not in Kent? (Unless there are forces within the DfT who wish to remove democracy of course.)
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by sibodkent on May 11, 2009 13:40:38 GMT
Hi, Today I walked from work to the steps below the SET platforms in StP. it took me exactly 38 minutes. I then returned using the tube. it took me 20 minutes. This is seat to train. It takes approx 8 minutes to walk from the entrance of St P to the terminal section dealing with domestic trains, which is a looooong walk! This means that while technically you can walk to St Pancras from Holborn in 30 minutes, it's acutually closer to 40. Presently I take 19 minutes to walk from Charing Cross to Holborn. Comparison: In the evening: In December, I will catch the 17:39 arriving at 18L31 (52 minutes), so giving me a total journey time of 1hr 11 minutes from work to Gravesend station. (I'd then have to wait up to 20 minutes for a bus) By comparison, the two nearest St pancras trains are: 17:44, arriving in Gravesend at 18:06 or 18:14: arriving in Gravesend at 18:36. Total journey time is: 1hr 2 minutes from desk to Gravesend station walking. (9 minute saving) OR 42 minutes with the tube ( saving 31 minutes). By comparison: In 2009, a season ticket to Gravesend is £2440 this appears to suggest this will be £3292. So, if I walk, I have to pay £852 for 9 minutes. That's nearly £100 a minute of time saved!! If I get the tube, In 2009, a Travel card from SET costs £2960 With HS1 it will cost £3812 This is a difference of £1372 - to 'save' 30 minutes! How disappointing
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 11, 2009 13:51:01 GMT
...but just to be a devil's advocate (and from being deceased I find that difficult from where I am) - they could also change the bus times! Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid P.S. My first use of a Smiley in all of my posts - I still don't feel comfortable about using them though.
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on May 11, 2009 16:27:36 GMT
Ooooh you old smoothy O.V.S.
HOGW
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