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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Feb 2, 2009 18:41:09 GMT
Lifted from the Southeastern website to help those of you who still have to travel...
A summary of the service planned for Tuesday 3 February
We're planning to run a limited service tomorrow. Passengers are advised to check with National Rail Enquiries (telephone 0845 7 48 49 50) before making their journey
Half hourly from 04:30 Ramsgate - Charing Cross via Sandwich, Dover, Ashford, Tonbridge
Calling at all stations to Tonbridge, then Sevenoaks, Orpington, London Bridge, Waterloo.
First train from Charing Cross to Ramsgate approx 07:00
Half hourly from 05:30 Ashford - Charing Cross via Tonbridge,
Running fast to Tonbridge, then all stations to Orpington (including Knockholt etc), then London Bridge, Waterloo
First train from Charing Cross to Ashford approx 07:15
Half hourly from 05:00 Orpington - Charing Cross
Calling at all stations via Grove Park, Lewisham, then fast from Lewisham - London Bridge
First train from Charing Cross to Orpington approx 06:00
Half hourly from 05:30 Hayes - Charing Cross
Calling at all stations via Lewisham, including St Johns and New Cross
First train from Charing Cross to Hayes approx 06:30
Half hourly from 05:30 Hastings - Charing Cross via Tunbridge Wells
Calling at all stations to Tonbridge, then Sevenoaks and Orpington and then fast to London Bridge
First train from Charing Cross to Hastings approx 07:45
Half hourly from 04:45 Ramsgate - Ashford via Canterbury West
Calling at stations
First train from Ashford to Ramsgate approx 05:45
Half hourly from 05:30 Ashford - Victoria via Maidstone East
Calling at all stations to Bromley South (including Eynsford, Shoreham and Bickley)
First train from Victoria to Ashford first train approx 06:45
Half hourly from 06:15hrs Bromley South - Victoria via Herne Hill
Calling at all stations via Beckenham Junction & Herne Hill
First train from Victoria to Bromley South first train approx 06:30
Half hourly from 04:35 Ramsgate - Victoria via Faversham/Chatham
Calling at all stations to St Mary Cray, Bromley South and Victoria
First train from Victoria to Ramsgate approx 07:30
Half hourly from 04:45 Dover - Faversham via Canterbury East
Calling at all stations
First train from Faversham to Dover Priory first train approx 04:45
Half hourly from 04:30 Gillingham - Cannon St via Dartford/Woolwich/Greenwich
Calling at all stations
First train from Cannon Street to Gillingham approx 06:15
Half hourly from 05:15 Dartford - Cannon St via Bexleyheath/Lewisham
Calling at all stations including St Johns/New Cross
First train from Cannon Street to Dartford approx 06:00
Half hourly from 0500 Dartford - Charing Cross via Sidcup/Lewisham
All stations to Lewisham, then fast to London Bridge
First train from Charing Cross to Dartford approx 06:00
Half hourly from 07:15 Swanley - Victoria via Catford Loop
All stations
First train from Victoria to Swanley approx 07:30
The following routes will have NO TRAIN SERVICE on Tuesday 3 February
Sittingbourne - Sheerness (buses will run in place of trains on this line)
Strood - Paddock Wood via Maidstone West
Faversham - Cannon Street fast peak services via Medway/Chislehurst
Plumstead - Cannon Street via Charlton/Lewisham (no services from Charlton - Blackheath & vice versa)
Cannon Street - Cannon Street Metro off peak 'circular services'
Grove Park - Bromley North
Sevenoaks - Blackfriars via Bat and Ball / Catford / Elephant & Castle
Orpington - Bromley South via Petts Wood / Bickley
Dartford - Victoria via Lewisham / Peckham Rye
This was carried by the Southeastern website at 6.30pm on Monday 2 February
Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by Shortformed on Feb 3, 2009 14:36:10 GMT
Quote : " lifted from the S.Eastern website"..
....who in turn plucked it out of thin air!
The SET guy at Bearsted stn. this morning was adamant that it was a half-hourly service to Victoria even though I had been waiting there 80 mins and others considerably longer. There was also confusion as a sign in the window (undated - but presumably left there since yesterday) greeted us with the news that there were no trains to London today. Someone asked the guy in the booking office if he wanted it taken down...but he didn't!
So which is worse: no information or mis-information?
An Ashford-bound train arrived unexpectedly - preceeded by an recorded announcement warning everyone to stand well clear as it was not for passenger use. When it appeared that it was there was a minor stampede across the footbridge from the waiting room on the opposite platform. The eventual arrival of the Victoria train was heralded with the same "not for you" warning - but we had cottoned on by then!
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Post by moggycat on Feb 4, 2009 8:21:17 GMT
Dear Moderator - can I reproduce this? Copied from Telegraph on line.....very interesting.......
The great rail debacle of February 2
Posted By: Justin Williams at Feb 3, 2009 at 11:09:37 [General]
Posted in: UK Correspondents
Tags:railways, snow, trains, Transport
In 1947, during an extraordinary two-month period from the end January, Britain experienced its worst snowfalls for a century. Weathermen, then on the payroll of the War Office, repeatedly forecast a return to milder conditions. That mild weather didn't arrive until the end of March. Despite the austerity of the post-war years, rationing, a shortage of coal and basic necessities ... most trains ran.
In 1963 the most severe winter in 200 years again brought extraordinary scenes to the United Kingdom: drifts up to 20ft deep, day after day of sub zero temperatures and biting easterly winds. But, again, for a month during the worst of it, the trains ran.
In January 1987, parts of the South East experienced their heaviest snowfalls in living memory. A trough carried in on easterly winds from deep in north eastern Europe dumped up to 40cm of snow on Kent, Essex and London. Villages were buried, the Army famously had to supply food to the Isle of Sheppey when it became cut off from the Kentish mainland and drifting left roads and rail lines under huge amounts of snow. On January 12 the highest the mercury reached in Kent was -7C: the lowest maximum temperature of the 20th century. Despite this and despite the most extraordinary Arctic scenes ever experienced in "the soft south", Network Southeast - a division of British Rail - continued to run a skeleton service on its main lines into London. By the afternoon of January 12, a third of all trains were running.
Yet on February 2, 2009 Network Southeast's private sector successor - SouthEastern - cancelled every train in its timetable. Not a single coach left a depot, not a single driver ventured out.
SouthEastern will claim, no doubt, that steam locomotives made the difference in both 1947 and 1963. That British Railways prior to the late 1960s did not have to rely upon the vulnerable and cheap third rail electification system that its fleet runs on today which so quickly becomes buried in snow and ice.
But this ignores 1987. The network was powered by third rails then and it was possible to run trains in the south in even the most extreme winter conditions. What was lacking yesterday, of course, was the will. SouthEastern will barely lose any money from this debacle because it will not have to refund season ticket holders. The cancellation of 100% of services will not appear in its statistics because it will be granted a "major event exemption" and so will not face an enforced cap on its fare price rise come January.
Those of us unlucky enough to have to rely on this part-British, part-French outfit to get us to work have just had to endure an 8% rise in ticket prices - the highest in the country. SouthEastern claims that this is to fund its investment in new high speed trains to run into St Pancras from December. But it has already announced that we will have to pay a premium to use those trains anyway - so hitting us with a "double whammy". As I surveyed the list of cancellations yesterday, I decided that I would be boycotting the high-speed service despite the effect it might have upon my working life. I sincerely hope that the other unfortunates who rely upon SouthEastern Trains will do the same.
SouthEastern is a prime example of the mentality that grips New Labour's Britain - milk the hell out of them when times are good, and let them whistle when times are bad. Because there are no penalties for this kind of behaviour, there is no will to provide the average citizen with any kind of service if there's money to be lost. This did not happen in 1987 because British Rail and its employees considered it their duty to keep Britain moving.
Most free marketeers know that private regional monopolies are very bad things; that, in the end, it is only choice that delivers a better service. Until companies like SouthEastern are broken up or other operators are allowed to run trains on the same tracks, the farce of February 2 will continue to happen every time the snow falls.
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Feb 4, 2009 11:23:29 GMT
Moggycat (and anyone else wishing to copy news articles): Absolutely no problem with it! :-)
It'd be nice to also include the link to the original article for those who want to see it in full colour with pictures and properly formatted text, which this forum isn't capable of showing!
RT
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Post by greenicing on Feb 4, 2009 11:24:00 GMT
very interesting post indeed
when set's corporate image woman ms bandy was interviewed by radio kent on monday afternoon, 1987 was unfortunately not raised.
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Post by chapelwood on Feb 4, 2009 13:17:23 GMT
The snow in January 1987 was much more severe than it has been this week, but train services in Kent were very severely affected then. I think the line between Rochester and Swanley via Sole Street was closed for over a week. Many of the trains that did run were assisted by diesel locomotives. Modern passenger trains have couplings which are incompatible with the couplings on diesel freight locomotives, even if Southeastern had bothered to ask freight operators if they could borrow some.
At the time British Rail owned one snowblower, which was kept at Inverness. It was eventually sent to Kent, though by the time it arrived it was only used to clear the Grain branch - not very useful for commuters. Subsequently Network SouthEast bought another snowblower. While the problem this year has been ice rather than drifting snow, and a snowblower would not have helped, it seems that both snowblowers are now kept at Moltherwell, so even if they had been needed in Kent they'd have taken a couple of days to get here.
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Feb 4, 2009 23:12:24 GMT
I must pass comment on a few parts of the article:
Apart from the dozens of drivers running 8 & 10 car "ghost trains" around the network all day and night following the de-icing trains to try and free up the pointwork from compacted ice and clear the lines from drifting & settling snow.
The hack who wrote that drivel obviously did the minimum of research for his article. Still, this is typical of the media, slag off the railway and it's employees to make them look like a bunch of lazy so-and-so's when instead they are working hard and to their best abilities with the poor equipment and orders they are given to get the job done so some kind of service could be run the following day.
The 3rd rail may be "cheap", but the fact is, it was the only reliable and proven technology available at the time it was installed. If it were to be ripped out and replaced with overhead cables, the cost would be horrendous - expect several decades of 8+% ticket price increases to pay for it. And then it's not a great deal more reliable as it has the nasty habit of falling down! It is also ugly, and would spoil the skyline - think of HS1 and it's ugly cables and towers all over Kent. I wonder what the author is proposing, unless he's just using his column as a free dig at the railway without having anything positive to suggest.
More to the point, if the 3rd rail was so "cheap and nasty", then why are several electrification projects that are currently under consideration for 3rd rail systems if the author believes overhead cables the all-singing-all-dancing alternative?
At a recent Railway Staff seance, one of the more junior members recalls an event back in the early 90's (although it could have been 89 - his memory of the event is quite vague now) where he was trapped for hours somewhere between London and Orpington on a chronically overcrowded train with no heating for quite a few hours. Things weren't rosy in the days of BR either.
Personally, as a dead Railwayman, from what I can make of the events of this week, I believe Notwork Rail are to blame for their extreme lack if preparation for Monday - which was on a par with the local councils (expecially those in London) who "forgot" to grit the roads.
Whilst it's all too easy to go SET-bashing, they can only run a service as good as the infrastructure with which they are presented. If half of the point heaters have failed and snow is impacted between the blades preventing them swinging over, if the rails are covered in snow and ice because the deicing trains weren't sent out (despite 7+ days worth of advance warning with the weather forecasts) and if points and signaling are failing because NR staff haven't quite managed to get out and give them a once-over, then it's quite unfair to blame SET. NR are responsible for *ALL* of these problems, yet they apparently just sat back and let it all go to pot, and then afterwards remained silent whilst the TOCs took the blame.
I wonder if Mr Hunt or any of my fellow dead engineers have any thoughts and comments on this rather interesting subject?
RT
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Post by becsfaversham on Feb 5, 2009 7:28:19 GMT
Sod the 2nd February services, what about those caught up on the 1st (Sunday).
Comiong home from London I got the 6.24pm out of Victoria. It was a Notworker and was 4 carriages. No sign of any snow or problems until 15 mins into the journey in east London.
At that point we continued to trvel slowely. Major problems when we reached the Farmingham Road incline. We couldn't get traction and get up it despite several attempts. Evenutally rolled back downhill to the station and sat there. At least the smokers were happy. My main gripe is that they has put this train into service which has 1 toilet per 4 car and that one toilet was out of order. Out of all the trains to choose from they deliberately have one in service with no toilet. Not a pretty sight when effectively due to the conditions you are stuck on this train for 4 hours. Yup, 4 hours it took to get home to Faversham.
Eventually coupled us up to another train to give us enough oomph to get over the incline. Even then it was still shorting out.
Needless to say given the experience Sunday I was not surprised to find no trains running Monday, alloowing me to go back to bed luckily since I had such a late night Sunday!
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Post by greenicing on Feb 5, 2009 10:26:57 GMT
I don't think that the article is attacking third rail as such, rather the use of that as a coverall excuse by the authorities, as third rail, while vulnerable, is not totally useless in winter with proper forethought. At the very least, the article seems to contain the basic truth that preparation for and response to snow and ice has declined since 1987. Whether that is the fault of SET or Network Rail matters little to hard pressed commuters. Could SET 'fight their (and our) corner' and demand a lot more from Network Rail? At the moment SET publicly seem satisifed with what they get and just tell us that they are 'working hard with their colleagues at NR'.
Where SET did let themselves down is the usual information problem - for example quite basic things like signs saying no trains at all were left up for people to see on Tuesday.
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Post by moggycat on Feb 5, 2009 11:29:11 GMT
I accept that there will be always difficulties with snow and ice but, to me, what summed up the wider issues with SET were the last 3 paragraphs of the article in particular the 'milk the hell............let them whistle.....' comment which applies not just to the bad weather situation but nearly all the other issues we discuss on here.
I hope the article has raised awareness and just wish something could be done to make our service better value for the money we pay. They have the upper hand. If you were not satisfied with the service provided by your gas provider or (dare I say) bank, you could give them the proverbial two fingers and go elsewhere.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Feb 6, 2009 0:10:34 GMT
Friends
There has been a lot written about the third rail electrification system used south of the Thames and how it should be converted to 25kv overhead. Here is what actually happened and is why you are where you are: -
The first LBSCR electrification was between London Bridge and Victoria in 1909 using a 6,700V overhead system. From 1911 it was extended to Crystal Palace and in 1912 to West Croydon. WWI stopped further electrication and it was 1918 when services started operating to Coulsdon North.
In the meantime the LSWR management had visited the Lancashire & Yorkshire railway's Liverpool - Southport line where a DC conductor rail collector system had been in use since 1904 and decided that they would electrify the inner suburban area by 1913.
The SECR did not undertake any electrification.
1923 arrived and the LSWR, LBSCR and SECR were combined into the Southern Railway. One of the Board's decisions was to standardise the electrification system to be used across its network. There were a high number of directors from the LSWR and it was not, therefore, surprising that the board chose the LSWR system.
By 1925 the now South Western section to Guildford and Dorking were electrified and the routes from Holborn Viaduct and Victoria to Orpington also received third rail trains.
By 1926 the routes to Charing Cross and Cannon Street had been electified and attention then turned to converting the overhead electrification to third rail on the Central section to West Croydon and Coulsdon North.
This meant that third rail was starting to expand out of London and by 1930 Gravesend services were electrified, by 1933 Brighton had joined the electrified timetable with Eastbourne coming on stream in 1935 (including Lewes in 58 minutes - faster than now).
The third rail system is cheap to install and reasonable cost effective to run at speeds up to 100mph. It is, overall, the best system for the southern-most counties of England which have good weather for a high percentage of every year. Where things have failed this time isn't down to train crews or signalling staff but to management of the train companies who seem to have lost the skill sets involved in operating a public transport service with planning to cover all types of weather conditions. They are quite happy to cancel trains at a moment's notice but fail to grasp the effect on both passengers and their employers.
GoVex could have planned for such circumstances this week. It need not have cost them much money. It just needed to be logical and obtained.
Southern rolling stock from the mid 1950s was designed so that anything could couple to almost anything else. One type of electric train could couple to another - or to a diesel locomotive - or to an electro diesel - or a motor luggage van etc etc. Why nobody has established a way to connect diesel locos used by EWS (now DB) for peak hour services is beyond me. Couplings - yes, door operation - yes, driving from an EMY cab - yes. All of these issues are just technical solutions waiting to be found. The Southern Region used to run diesel hauled services on Oxted Line morning peak services after which they moved to freight trains before returning to the Oxted Line in the evening peak. The diesel hauled train were composed of converted EMU rolling stock. Many GoVex trains sit in sidings during the day and overnight. Freight trains are embargoed during peak periods. Why not start thinking about the maximum use of assets?
The answer is currently simple - different operators. But could GoVex do a deal with EWS (DB), cut its costs and start running trains during bad weather? Could somebody get a modern electro diesel on the rails? Could the existing electro diesels get higher powered diesel equipment fitted? Could GoVex actually start thinking about operating a decent service instead of spending a lot of time thinking about ways of sending passengers to stations that they don't want to go to? Will the ChavLine trains be any better when running on third rail? Why were early Eurostars cancelled earlier this week during bad weather on the CTRL?
Send your answers on a postcard...
O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by Shortformed on Feb 6, 2009 12:54:46 GMT
As an example of bad weather preparations I seem to remember that in the days of SR/NSE the junction at Swanley was locked so that Otford/Maidstone E trains had to approach the station on the southermost track while Chatham-bound services had to use the northernmost (ie straight through) lines. (Or so I was told by an apparently knowledgeable fellow commuter at the time)
Any switching of tracks was concentrated further up the line meaning that track staff could devote their efforts to keeping one juntion ice-free rather than several. On Tuesday my train was switching all over the place in this section.
I presume other, similar junctions were operated in the same way.
I am only a layman and am ready to be corrected in this by anyone with greater knowledge - living or dead.
SF
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Post by genehuntisking on Feb 11, 2009 15:38:20 GMT
As an example of bad weather preparations I seem to remember that in the days of SR/NSE the junction at Swanley was locked so that Otford/Maidstone E trains had to approach the station on the southermost track while Chatham-bound services had to use the northernmost (ie straight through) lines. (Or so I was told by an apparently knowledgeable fellow commuter at the time) Any switching of tracks was concentrated further up the line meaning that track staff could devote their efforts to keeping one juntion ice-free rather than several. On Tuesday my train was switching all over the place in this section. I presume other, similar junctions were operated in the same way. I am only a layman and am ready to be corrected in this by anyone with greater knowledge - living or dead. SF This is still the case to a certain extent, and was partly responsible for the emergency train service plan devised to kick off on Tuesday 3rd February. At numerous locations there were attempts to plan so that minimal point usage was required. hence the reason nothing ran between Orpington and Bromley or Sevenoaks and Otford. It meant that a lot of sets of points could be left in the position they were in. Network Rail refer to it as "Key Route Strategy". At places like Headcorn, Paddock Wood and Newington points are left for all trains to run through the platform loops in the snow. There is a similar plan in hot weather too. In the heat the points expand and this can cause them to fail unless adjusted, so Network Rail focus on getting certain key sets of points adjusted, and (unless in an emergency) leave others in a single position. Your friend was absolutely right about Swanley, the slow lines are set towards Chatham and the fast lines towards Otford. Other heat related ones are at Grove Park for straight running, New Cross (no crossing movements), Belvedere Road (between Waterloo East and Charing Cross), Shepherds Lane (between Brixton and Clapham High St). There are others too, which I can't remember off the top of my head. It can mean that some of the flexibility is lost in times of disruption, but overall that is better that trying to do one piece of regulating and bringing everything to a stand for 40 minutes! The Gene Genie |
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Post by trainplanner on Feb 24, 2009 12:48:46 GMT
Takign notes of some previous postings, I think many of SETs and NRs staff on the ground did a great job on tuesday in foul conditions trying to get trains run. Gene Genie, thankyou for the infomration on a common sense approach, heres hoping it is catching..
O.V.S your musings on maximum use of assests are interesting. A few pointers. THe locos you refer too worked exceptionally well with everything because hights couplers and various other things were standardised across the entire BR fleet. As frieght was barred in the peaks for various reasons it made sense to do this, as it maximised asset use.
Your right in the sense of different operators have done different things. THe difficulties here are two fold. Firstly the only frieght locos which have a compatable coupler to SET stock are Virgins Class 57 thunderbirds. One was moved to slade green to do a couple compatability test and it was found that the height difference between the two was a fair few inches so no connection could be made. As such the only way to connect locos to emus now is through barrier vehicles (specially modified mark 1s or 2s) and there are very few of these about.
Why not retrofit the locos i here people ask? well unless you do EWS's entire fleet of class 66 and 67s (some 300 plus vehicles) then you won't have the flexibility for both SET and EWS to respond when needed. and as the use these locos would get is relatively minimal in the overall scheme of things, it simply isn't worth the government paying for it to happen.
I agree loco hauled stock for peak formations is a preferance to multiple units, and this has been an accepted industry desire for many years, however the accountants are running the railways now and EMUs are percieved to be better.
Why no new ED? simple, no passenger requirement for it. It would make a great go anywhere fright loco, but would be too expensive when a simple diesel machine works just as well and is much simpler and cheaper to operate.
Peoples Thoughts??
TP
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