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Post by sibodkent on Nov 10, 2008 13:38:03 GMT
I set off this morning with a fairly average service, until about 3 minutes outside of Gravesend, the train halted, and was stuck there until around 9:20! The driver was very informative, but was clearly frustrated by the lack of information going to and from the control centre, but essentially he could not tell us anything usefu.. It turns out there was a train broken down at Swascombe, and thus blocked the entire route up from Strood to Dartford. They didnt get a train to tow it for about an hour after it initially broke down, and then let ours go fast from Dartford to Waterloo East. Apparently another one broke down at Charring Cross at the same time, causing rpbolems on the Orpington line (so a colleage said). Problems? Yes!! Firstly, it turns out (from someone on the train that blroke down) that they got the train fixed, but the driver went missing...hence needing to be towed. Secondly, why didnt they simply reverse my train and let us off at gravesend? They had a bus service running! Thirdly, why was the driver struggling to get information from the central control??? Fourthly, How is it that two networkers broke down together, these trains are a libaility, alwasy causing delays due to broken doors, broken toilets, broken traction, broken information displays - they dont adhere to the lines correctly and are slow starting in wet weather. During the q&a at Charing Cross, I asked Southeastern what they were doing about the reliability of the Networkers. Aparently they are replacing the traction on them starting from January, and have some in testing now - a good thing, no? They have zero plans to refurbish the rest of the line though....  |
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Nov 10, 2008 15:13:57 GMT
Firstly, it turns out (from someone on the train that blroke down) that they got the train fixed, but the driver went missing...hence needing to be towed. Sorry, but that's absolute B****CKS! Who are "they" and what was the problem "they" found? The driver likely "disappeared" to lay protection on the line so the other train could approach, attach and drag out of the way. I find it hard to believe that a driver would commit a sackable offence on a rush hour train with so many witnesses! A train behind you already in the platform, or between you and the station, perhaps? Besides, according to your unreliable source of misinformation, there was no driver available to move it! This is a common complaint. It's been there since the railway started. The people in control assume all railway staff are psychic and know what illogical thoughts they are thinking. According to reports from my staff seances, this is a common complaint, yet their requests for better communication are always ignored, which leads to irritation to both staff and passengers. The staff in control need to be cracked down hard upon, but sadly this will never happen. Networkers are old and becoming increasingly unreliable. It's not uncommon to have multiple faults on the same day. Unfortunately, as is the case here, they only generally get noticed when it's a peak time failure. As to the weather and lack of adhesion, this is common with ALL trains around the world, not just the UK / Networkers. There has been a SINGLE test train in operation for quite a few months now. In general the new package works, although there are some minor problems that need ironing out by Hitachi. If all goes to plan, as you wre told, it should roll out across all BREL (465/0 & 465/1) stock from spring/summer of next year. This won't help much with slipping and sliding though. I don't understand/ Richard Trevithick |
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Post by trainplanner on Nov 11, 2008 8:32:24 GMT
Gentlemen,
I understand SiBods Frustrations, I too was caught in the problems, with many services that should have started at my local station being run late turned back early in their or just plain cancelled.
Not only were their problems as reported but their were issues with services coming up from the kent coast as they were running between 10 and 30 minutes late. All in all i think a void day will be declared.
However, Returning to the matter in hand, we have been in this situation before where a two postees with passions for their job and the issues surrounding commuting meet head on, as an immoveable object and an irresistable force.
Sufficed to say the workings of the Railway remain a mystery to many (due to the lack of communication when things go wrong, hence the incorrect comment from someone on the train that the driver had legged it..) and SI Bod was right to post to ask queries, (as should anybody) but perhaps all postees need to careful as to how we use the english language in future.
Without detailed access to the incident reports from within Network Rail we will never know the real cause and issue of the incident or how it was resolved, but can only speculate.
However if the train was towed after an hour, then their is a possibility that the driver may have been able to get the train going only for it to fail again shortly afterwards, or he was asked to declare it a failure by control as they managed to get a spare unit to it to drag it out of the way just as he got it fixed.
The sooner the Networker fleet is replaced or upgraded the better, thankfully the bods in the industry have seen to test the hitachi upgrade fully before rolling it out across the fleet, so we are thankful for small mercies.
As today hasn't been subject to massive downpours today, how have peoples commutes been??
Regards
TP
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Neil
Junior Member
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Post by Neil on Nov 11, 2008 9:21:48 GMT
Just to add a comment about communication which is one of my major bugbears I was on one of the Kent coast trains running late. We stopped at the signal at Penge East station - one of my favourite places to people watch - for a while. The conductor came on to apologise for the delay and said it was because we were "running on red signals". Now I assume in layman's speak that means something along the lines of "we are stopped at a red signal" or "we are moving slowly between red signals" which, to be honest (if it is so) is slightly stating the obvious!!! If it means something else then it would have been useful to know what it was I am, in no way, blaming the train crew as I suspect they rely on information from outside. But it's not the most helpful announcement  |
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Post by celestine on Nov 11, 2008 10:07:57 GMT
Last night was pretty dire too. I can't be bothered to go into the nightmare of Cannon Street, but one thing pleased me. "They" tried to shut the station although the concourse was no more crowded than usual and some trains were still getting out. Lots of commuters were held at the bottom of the station steps by an "official" and a bit of tape. After one poor lady was denied access to the loo, commuter power took over (HURRAH!) and we all made a rush for the stairs and eventually got on to trains. Probably not advisable for safety reasons (although was definitely no worse than normal!) but, boy, did it help to relieve frustrations and make us poor beleaguered travellers feel more in control. Thoroughly recommended!
Cel x
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Post by moggycat on Nov 11, 2008 12:19:07 GMT
I agree it was absolute chaos last night and some issues could have been avoided with better organisation on the part of SE (though no doubt there will be the usual blaming Notwork/the weather and buck passing)
1 - The information boards have all been removed thus leaving the one main board with thousands of people congregating around it
2 - The spoken announcements were wrong. He said 17.44 would be on P7 but this was in fact the 18.04 (17.44 came in later on P5 - surely would have been sensible to put it on P6 (which was empty) so people on the wrong train could swap easily. I did not hear any correction or apology (this may have been because I was in the football crowd or sitting inside the wrong train)
There were no apologies or explanations about anything last night and the staff who usually hang around with phones and clipboards had also done a runner - these people usually can tell you a bit more than the announcements do.
3 - A large part of the concourse was fenced off with just one smallish piece of 'plant' in it - (this morning there was more in the fenced off area but it was definitely empty last night). It would have helped if there was more space to accomodate what was just the normal number of passengers
4 - Since SE's last masterstroke of timetable tweaking the 17.44 now comes from 'somewhere' with about 6 passeengers on it. It is now often late, thus meaning that the 1,200 or so passengers waiting for it have to wait on the concourse blocking access for all the other passengers. It used to come in empty from wherever it lives during the day, and (nearly) always be waiting on P7. Thus all 1,200 passengers always knew where it would be - and could get straight on it. Obviously with the tweaking some bright spark thought it would be a good idea to use the Notworker on an inward journey - this clever revenue boosting initiative now results in regular cahos and overcrowding for thousands of 'customers'.
5 - A 'void day' - can we have money back then? Iwish I could declare a 'void day' ever time I have a bad one. How useful this would be.
6 - Cannon St station refurbishments are not (I believe) scheduled to be complete until 2012 - does this mean we have another 4 years of this chaos? They will have to do something to improve the communications.
7 - Whoever is responsible for planning this refurbishment (so that no passengers will be inconvenienced) is not doing the job properly. I wonder if they are in a senior position with a huge salary and bonus? Is anyone actually accountable for yesterday's chaos or will the buck be passed yet again?
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Post by nosferr2 on Nov 11, 2008 13:50:06 GMT
Neil: I suspect the conductor made that announcement as, like many before, they were unable to get the information from the control center but wanted to say something so people didn't think that they couldn't be bothered to announce anything.
Moggycat: I too was at that building site known as Cannon Street last night (I think it's all a ploy to tempt people into paying extra to go to St Pancras, but thats another story), and Platform 6 probably would have made more sense as it should have been on seven if they didn't bring an empty train in before one that comes in with passengers on board, but when has common sense ever come into it, however I can confirm that the 1744 did get re-advertised/corrected as being on platform 5, why were a football crowd on a peak train, when I go we usually make a day of it, shame they were in your coach all round really.
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Neil
Junior Member
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Post by Neil on Nov 11, 2008 14:20:26 GMT
[quote Neil: I suspect the conductor made that announcement as, like many before, they were unable to get the information from the control center but wanted to say something so people didn't think that they couldn't be bothered to announce anything. /quote] Yes I agree. It's a Catch 22 situation for the train crew. Personally, I'd prefer the "the sorry about this but we are awaiting info on what the problem is" take on it all but that's me I just think it's just an example of the communication problems there seem to be between Govia Central and stations and trains Maybe I am being a bit harsh and I am reacting to a downturn in service (as far as I am concerned anyway) over the last few weeks |
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Nov 11, 2008 15:59:04 GMT
I'll just add a comment or two if I may. The information is there. The problem is getting it out quickly enough to make a difference. And, it is still NOT one railway. Example. Last week during a problem the guard was talking to control about dropping off some stock with a fault and continuing with the rest of the train. Control said X, the Guard said X to the driver but the driver said " I'll decide what train I take". The driver won which only shows that decisions,however quickly made and decided are still subject to the whims of one man!!
HOGW
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Nov 12, 2008 14:37:13 GMT
Good afternoon Everyone,
Trainplanner, I too understand SiBod's frustrations. Although I don't have an active role within the railway, I do consider myself to be a (dead) Railway man through and through, and therefore find it extremely offensive that accusations are made against my living fellow Railwaymen by people who are just guessing and making wild assumptions, rather than having the real facts to hand. I sincerely hope I didn't cause any offence to SiBod, it definitely wasn't intended. However, the nature of the accusations made did make me reply in my rather snapping manner!
Moving on, lastnight I was awoken from my Etheral sleep by my medium, who had somebody who claims to be, in her own words, "a muppet from Fraggle Rock" who had some insight into the events of the other day.
- There is no official reference to the driver disappearing. If this did happen, it was as I suggested, that he had to lay detonator protection on the line for the assisting train.
- The fault was with the 2-car leading the train. The driver lost all power to the motors. This is becoming a fairly common problem with 2-car units. An unusually high number have already failed this year.
- The train could not return to Gravesend as, apart from dead motors, both platforms were already occupied by other trains.
- The fitters did eventually get it working, but the assisting train was already en-route, so it was decided to split the train (boxing the defective 2-car in) and running a special service.
- It is a known problem that control are extremely bad at passing on information. We all live in hope that one day somebody will make them communicate in an efficient manner so that everyone knows what's happening, and not just them. Traincrew frequently complain about being left in the dark and being the last to know.
Apparently there were further problems lastnight - something about a trespasser on the line at Waterloo?
Kind regards,
Richard
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Post by celestine on Nov 12, 2008 15:22:01 GMT
A genuine question...
How can a trespasser on the track at Waterloo East cause trains disruptions until quarter past midnight? Is said person galloping up and down the tracks for five and three quarter hours, popping up occasionally to thwart the authorities? Has he caused some damage/vandalism etc that needs to be seen to (wouldn't that be labelled "operating disater" or similar?)
I know some trains might be in the wrong place but this seems an inordinate length of inconvenience for one little trespasser!
Anyway, hope someone has an answer,
Curiously yours, Cel x
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Post by Vinnie on Nov 12, 2008 15:47:14 GMT
I can shed some light on the train failure at Swanscombe.The train's, Driver Reminder Appliance (DRA), was faulty.This prevented the driver from taking power.As Richard said the driver would be waiting for the assisting train after laying detonator protection(300yds in advance of the failed train).What i think happened is the fitters turned up managed to fix the problem by isolating the D.R.A.
The trouble was the assistance had been arranged and was on its way.
Monday wasn't a great day mainly due to the weather/leaf fall,to give you some idea there was fifteen instances of station overruns on Monday alone.These cause delays because the driver has to change ends and pull back into the station,setting back or reversing is not allowed.There was also a points failure at Grove Park depot and also at Spa rd junction which delayed a lot of trains,a failed train at London Bridge an alarm pulled on another and this was just some of the problems.
To look on the bright side at least it stayed mostly dry Tuesday and Wednesday which helped a lot.
Vinnie.
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Nov 12, 2008 21:29:03 GMT
Dearest Cel,
Reports suggest that after being apprehended once, he escaped and jumped down on the tracks a second time. Before the Police could give chase, the power had to be isolated, and of course the trains stopped. By the time things got moving, trains were backed up beyond Hither Green. I suspect some traincrew needed to take their breaks too (a legal requirement) before resuming their work, which would have exacerbated the problems. I wouldn't be surprised if London Bridge signal box were causing their own delays by sending trains up "as booked" rather than just sending them up in the most efficient and convenient order (i.e. as they arrived).
Were any trains diverted to Cannon St or terminated at London Bridge? If not, why not? I'm sure this would have helped to keep things running better...
This person apparently caused over 3200 mins delay!
Vinnie - thank you for the update on the DRA, it would appear my source with the information at her fingertips let me down (although the net effect was dead motors). It was supposed to have caused over 700 mins delay.
There is rumour of another trespasser on the track this evening, this time on the Greenwich line. Apparently the rush hour service has been severely affected.
Where is the Gene Genie, he always has quality reliable information...
Kind regards,
Richard T
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Post by sibodkent on Nov 13, 2008 10:10:31 GMT
With respect to the second (actually 3rd hand, possibly 4th0 information about the driver 'legging it' at Swanscombe on monday, I was only repeating what was told to me. Anyway, on the subject of train reliability on the SET Network - I notice that yesterdays performance was absolutely appalling accross the network. No less than 11 (ELEVEN!) delays were caused by faulty trains, whihc I'm pretty certain is highly unusual for an supposidly efficent rail service? THere were a lot of signalling issues too - as well as rail adhesion problems (though these dont seem to be as frequent as the trains breaking down). Whats with all the people running up and down railway lines during the autumn/winter months too? I also notice they failed to mention the delay of the 17:52 from London Charing X being 10 minutes late to Gravesend....(which it has been every time I caught it this week!) www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/main.php?page_id=429Dearest Cel, Reports suggest that after being apprehended once, he escaped and jumped down on the tracks a second time. Before the Police could give chase, the power had to be isolated, and of course the trains stopped. By the time things got moving, trains were backed up beyond Hither Green. I suspect some traincrew needed to take their breaks too (a legal requirement) before resuming their work, which would have exacerbated the problems. I wouldn't be surprised if London Bridge signal box were causing their own delays by sending trains up "as booked" rather than just sending them up in the most efficient and convenient order (i.e. as they arrived). Were any trains diverted to Cannon St or terminated at London Bridge? If not, why not? I'm sure this would have helped to keep things running better... This person apparently caused over 3200 mins delay! Vinnie - thank you for the update on the DRA, it would appear my source with the information at her fingertips let me down (although the net effect was dead motors). It was supposed to have caused over 700 mins delay. There is rumour of another trespasser on the track this evening, this time on the Greenwich line. Apparently the rush hour service has been severely affected. Where is the Gene Genie, he always has quality reliable information... Kind regards, Richard T |
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Nov 13, 2008 10:47:57 GMT
Sibod. Sickening though t is to be regularly late, one must remember that 10 minutes late is actually on time! Equally confusing on the page you indicate is the statement that " a service may be delayed during the journey...........on time at the final destination". Of course the missing part of that statement is at the end and should read...but not without inconveniencing our customers!!!
HOGW
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