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Post by trainplanner on Dec 4, 2008 10:40:21 GMT
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Dec 5, 2008 20:12:06 GMT
Dear Trainplanner
Very interesting, I had missed it... (but perhaps that points to the effectiveness of the GoVex 2009 website).
My gut feel is that the DfT have dug their heels in against GoVex wishing to reduce the peak hour service level - even GoVex's own budget pointed to only 5tph at "Go Live".
What is missing is the honesty over the "Classic" service frequency and stopping patterns. Why?
Could it be that, with a deep recession being around at "Go Live" date, they are having thoughts about the viability of the Kent Coast classic service to maintain their profit levels?
At present they haven't shown accurate journey times on the website again. (...or to be precise GoVex haven't suitably qualified the table to make their case)
You know, I still believe that Charles Horton is an honerable man who is having a very difficult set of choices thrust upon him. I suspect that he is presently drawn in a number of directions that will, given wrong decisions, leave GoVex in a non-profitable position in a year's time so I wish him well. I think that his main choice will be to overcharge a reducing number of commuters who cannot pay extra to get to the City and West End (because of a coming wages freeze) against the provision of good level of faster classic services that might actually give him a bad press in terms of backing down. My feeling is that when given the current situation he would be wise not to add to people's problems by concentrating on the Gravesend/Ebbsfleet residential area and destinations north of London for ChavLine services and retaining the fast classic services during both peak and off-peak.
Yours sincerley O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by jumpedup on Dec 9, 2008 17:47:18 GMT
Looks like Southeastern might have been listening a bit on 'journey times'. The new posters (at least 4 I've seen at Faversham) are now comparing apples with something like apples.
The posters compare 'expected fastest am peak time' with 'average am peak time now' which is clearly better than best HS1 vs worst 'Classic'. However, these are clearly not directly comparable figures, and they don't of course tell the full story, unless your job is moving from London Bridge to St Pancras in mid-December 2009.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Dec 9, 2008 20:17:53 GMT
Dear jumpedup
Good news indeed - I have not been advised of what is actually shown so cannot heap praise on them until some actual data is known.
I suppose that it will show the fastest times now but peak hour journeys are not the fastest of the day at present and I would hazard a guess that once the actual times become known we can look back into history (before timetable padding started) and find many peak hour trains that have been faster during peak hours.
But - fairs fair, give praise where it is due.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by barrygillingham on Dec 9, 2008 20:25:27 GMT
I wrote to my MP (Paul Clark) about a week ago having a bit of a moan about the price increases, but a bigger rant about the "fast services". His response is his blog uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9EmMFjNkA&eurl=http://www.paulclarkmp.com/which misses the point entirely and makes other points which are debatable. Mind you, he is now a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport. I think I'll write back and politely say my letter wasn't answered. Barrygillingham
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Dec 10, 2008 11:54:12 GMT
...and here ends the Party Political Broadcast on behalf of Paul Clark MP!! HOGW
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Post by BecsFaversham on Dec 10, 2008 13:39:43 GMT
I too have seen all these posters at Faversham. If I remember correctly the posters said Faversham will be 16 mins quicker.
On what basis?
Previously the train company has only said circa 4mins quicker on the high speed line.
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Post by jumpedup on Dec 11, 2008 14:18:55 GMT
I too have seen all these posters at Faversham. If I remember correctly the posters said Faversham will be 16 mins quicker. On what basis? Previously the train company has only said circa 4mins quicker on the high speed line. think the 4 minutes still applies but they are now comparing different numbers. The 4 minutes is the gain if you take the fastest train to St Pancras (65 minutes? don't have the figure in front of me) and compare with the fastest train to Victoria (69 minutes). But the point they are accepting is that in peak hours there are no trains that run that fast to London - they all take at least 10 minutes longer in the peak - hence the 16 minute saving. I think this news is positive. I had been concerned that the 65 minute or whatever from Faversham quoted forever would not apply to peak services which would inevitably get stuck in the peak traffic getting from Rochester to Gravesend. It would seem that they are not expecting any significant slower journey to the peak compared with the off peak.
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Post by trainplanner on Dec 12, 2008 11:00:32 GMT
Just a quick thought, If they say that in the peak no train travels as fast as the fastest service, typically because of congestion throughout the journey, then surely untill the service gets onto the high speed line it will suffer the same journey times as the existing classic service?
I would have thought that because of the critical nature of prompt arrival on to the CTRL would have meant more timetable padding on approach to the key stations/Junctions not less?. I don't think that the signallers will regulate to make sure the Domestics always have a clear run, they will run them in timetabled order.
Or are we looking at comparing Granny smiths with golden delicious here?
Peoples thoughs
Regards
TP
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Post by William Dargan on Dec 12, 2008 12:59:16 GMT
Not sure about the regulation of the CTRL-D services before they join the High Speed Line - but I'm guessing that the delay penalties would be higher on HS1, especially if you manage to delay a Eurostar - so Network Rail signallers would be told to try and limit any delays that could be attributed to themselves.
While on the HS Line - southeastern's services will be timetabled to run at 200KPH, while the trains themselves can easily do 225KPH - so there's already padding there.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Dec 12, 2008 16:24:47 GMT
Friends
Don't get over-excited there is no really good news about the CTRL-DS services - simply spin.
Ashford - the fastest peak hour service in 1962 was the 17.10 from Cannon Street which arrived in Ashford in 64mins. This is 27mins slower than from North London but SER admit that the walking time from the City will be greater than that and there has been a lot of messages indicating that the Underground will add more time - and this service was not at premium price.
Faversham - the fastest peak hour services ran at half hourly intervals from Cannon Street in 59mins without premium prices.
Canterbury - was 76mins from Cannon Street in 1962 - so actually faster than offered at premium pricing for the ChavLine trains.
Dover - was 87mins in 1962 so only 14mins slower and at normal prices. Boat trains cost a premium price but took only 78mins from Victoria (albiet off peak).
It may have been deliberate DfT policy to start adding timetable padding to services to get them ready for adding stations to journeys. No evidence yet of course but it started when the go-ahead for building the CTRL was announced.
The CTRL is not a good deal for Kent and the classic services are being deliberately made slower to try and force commuters to switch. Many, I am sure, will view this as another Gordon Brown stealth tax.
I agree with Mr Dargan on the subject of "polluter pays" penalties for arriving on the CTRL late. The potential for skip stopping, not waiting for portions etc are many. There are also potential problems for GoVex in the tunnel sections from Ebbsfleet if they do not have staff on hand for safety requirements through the long tunnels.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Dec 13, 2008 14:20:45 GMT
Well, the 395s were shown to the public and Lord Adonis stated his carefully rehersed words but it is noticable that the media started mentioning pricing of the services.
The whole economics is interesting: - CTRL Options – published by the SRA February 2003 Page 1 “It highlights the need to maintain services for the many thousands of commuters who have established their homes and employment patterns on the basis of the train services currently provided, while allowing the development of new travel and employment opportunities, not only to London, but within Kent. It also sets out the relative financial and economic profiles of the different options.” Page 5 “In examining service options for CTRL DS, the SRA has also been mindful of existing passengers in the South East and their established travel patterns. For many commuters in particular, lifestyle decisions will have been made on the basis of existing rail services between Kent and termini that are predominantly located in the southern part of central London. It will take time for new service options to be reflected in passengers’ choice of home and work locations. It would be poor planning to expect passengers to use new routes to new destinations that may mean longer or more inconvenient journeys.
Equally, in considering the domestic service options for the CTRL, the SRA has sought to avoid those that would simply involve a substitution of existing services with new services. The goal has been to achieve enhancements to existing service patterns. This is particularly relevant in considering service options on the North Kent line towards the Medway towns and Thanet, where capacity constraints around Rochester mean that additional services cannot be operated in peak hours without major infrastructure modification.”
Page 12 (discussing the Thanet Towns via Medway option) “The other principal option would be to reduce the number of fast Ramsgate/Broadstairs to London trains. Currently these operate at approximately 20-minute intervals both to Cannon Street and Victoria. A reduction would leave a very limited service to terminals convenient to the final destinations of most existing users, and seriously affect service frequencies at some smaller stations between Faversham and Margate.”
The most cost effective option for the Chavline service is known as the Core Option and there were five others. Listed from best “Net Present Value” to the worst they are: - +1.15 – Core Option +0.84 – Thanet Towns via Canterbury +0.38 – Medway Partial +0.37 – Medway Full +0.36 – Mid Kent -0.19 – Thanet Towns via Medway
The Core Option indicates 4trains per hour (tph) to Gravesend plus 4tph to Ashford with 2 going to Canterbury and 2 to Folkestone during peak hours. This was calculated to be the most viable service, one that would not affect the route through the Medway Towns. The second most cost effective was shown to be by extending the Canterbury services to Ramsgate (but not through to Margate). The different Medway options then offer very similar results but running to Thanet via Chatham was the worst financial case.
It seems clear to me that the DfT are expecting Kent passengers to use an option that is not the most popular or cost effective to the taxpayer (to use the current argument for raising rail fares).
There are 29 Hitachi 395 units purchased and to me the most effective use would be to build on the Core Option and favoured London terminals to give services that gave the best return for the taxpayer and passenger: - Peak Periods 2tph St Pancras to Ashford then 6 cars to each branch 1tph Victoria to Ashford via CTRL1 then 6 cars to each branch. 1tph Cannon St to Ashford via CTRL1 then 6 cars to each branch. 2tph St Pancras to Gillingham 2tph St Pancras to Maidstone West Off Peak 1tph St Pancras to Ashford then 6 cars to each branch 1tph Victoria to Ashford via CTRL1 then 6 cars to each branch. 2tph St Pancras to Gillingham 2tph St Pancras to Maidstone West
Victoria to Ashford should be 25mins to Fawkham Jn, 3mins to Southfleet Jn and 17mins to Ashford – total 45mins, non stop. Cannon Street services stopping at London Bridge would take up to 50mins to Ashford. Both of these would give significantly shorter journey times to East Kent using the most popular London terminals and fastest route whilst maintaining much of the DfT's ambition to increase traffic to and from areas North of London. Maybe paying a premium for the relevant CTRL section (41% of the St Pancras hike for Victoria and Cannon St) might even give passengers better value for money than now.
On the Thames Gateway branch from Ebbsfleet there would be more trains per hour off peak, but lower vehicle miles. The new building around Ebbsfleet will be the most likely area to migrate to ChavLine services so the final service distribution would not only be a better passenger solution but probably the most cost effective.
Yours Sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by trainplanner on Dec 15, 2008 11:45:19 GMT
Ladies and Gents,
I have just recieved a communique from south eastern which indicates that the times shown from medway were based on the average of both the Fast and the stopping services.
I have also been informed that the high speed team want the numbers to be right and representative, and it has been agreed that the comments will be passed on for them to review.
As such would people agree that a journey time of 45 minutes from rochester 47 from chatham and 50 from gillingham would be about right given the performance of the 375's?
If you think it should be something else please let us know here so hopefully we can save South eastern some work...
Thanks TP
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Post by BecsFaversham on Dec 15, 2008 13:06:38 GMT
I would say the times you have quoted for peak time (non stopping) services are about right.
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Post by trainplanner on Dec 15, 2008 14:46:02 GMT
Thankyou Becs of Faversham. Is it worth, do you think, producing our own list of station journey times to london victoria (Key stations only) to pass onto South eastern or to make available via this website??
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