st
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by st on Oct 23, 2008 13:23:27 GMT
The SET "spin" machine seems to be in action again. In my professional capacity I have just received a marketing document from a company named nbts, "the business arm of South Eastern". In the glossy, nbts are extolling the time-saving virtues of the high speed line and they include a map of London showing walking times from St Pancras International. I work near to Fenchurch Street station and their calculation is that this is a 25 minute walk. The AA route calculator suggests that the road distance between the two stations is 3.5 miles, so allowing for walking being more direct, say 3 miles and given that the average walking speed for males is 3 miles per hour, I am not sure how SET's 25 minutes was arrived at ( possibly one of their staff is an Olympic speed walker?). SET should just admit that the time saved on the train journey to StP will be more than lost for those of us who have to travel to the City.
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Post by trainplanner on Oct 23, 2008 17:48:08 GMT
St, Thanks for signing up and for such an interesting post! We have all suspected this for a very long time, but is heartening to know that people out there are able to question the spin that is currently being produced.
Yes you are right that they should just be honest. I should also draw your attention to a recent Q and A session posted on their website saying that more detailed information would be available soon on how to get around London by foot from ST pancras. It would appear that this information is going to be inaccurate to say the least. Could you expand on some of the other things they have said in their marketing pitch to you please. Thanks
TP
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Post by moggycat on Oct 24, 2008 12:21:03 GMT
st and TP - I also saw the Q&A info on their website and am surprised not to have seen more comments about it here.
I also work in Fenchurch St and have seen the 25 minutes quote. It's scandalous that they are publishing things such as this, which clearly are incorrect and misleading. Some people may actually believe what they read and plan their daily journeys accordingly (let's not forget - daily, expensive and unreliable especially at this time of the year. We're not talking about leisure travel here).
I am not sure if there is anything we can do about it other than rant here.
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Oct 25, 2008 7:40:10 GMT
I await a reply from the Lord Adonis, Minister for Rail, to whom I have addressed a number of questions on the above subject. HOGW
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st
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by st on Oct 27, 2008 13:14:54 GMT
Trainplanner
I do not think that there weas anything in the glossy that will be new to any of the regular Posters on this site. Some of the other things contained in the brochure were some SET statistics - eg 187 stations;400 trains;3,800 employees 1700 train services per day;400,000 passenger fourneys per day;£70million investment in services and facilities. Also there was some info. about the new Hi Speed service - new fleet of 29 Hitachi trains, London to Ashford in 37 mins plus a whole list of current journey times now and as planned under the new link.
Regards st
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Post by paulbGillingham on Oct 27, 2008 17:52:36 GMT
Transport for London's Journeyplanner (advanced options) gives walking time St Pancras international to Fenchurch Street Station as 1 hr and 8 minutes at average walking speed. The fastest journey they give is 21 minutes by bike, followed by various 26-35 minutes including Circle/Met to Aldgate and slower rides by bus (affected by road works).
I guess the journeyplanner can be used to define walking times. Southeastern's 27 minutes might be based on the walk/Underground/walk pattern, requiring the travelcard add-on to season tickets.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Nov 14, 2008 8:44:15 GMT
Good Morning GoVex have now published more spin about their new services that will operate from December 2009 - and it is as bad as most people have expected. To take a look follow this link: - www.southeastern2009.co.uk/index.php/cms/pages/homeOn the left hand side of the screen you will find a facility to gain a comparison between the current service and the new one. Some commuters will notice that the new ChavLine services will no longer stop at some stations that were part of the franchise agreement but the classic services have been decimated and the original promise, associated with the building of the CTRL have been conveniently forgotten. To give one example from GoVex's own website - Sandling will not be served and passengers will have to change at Ashford, the journey taking about an hour - so 12 mins to Ashford, 37 mins to North London and 11 mins to wait at Ashford against a seamless journey now - and of course more expensive. So what will the poor Sandling commuters who wish to avoid the "High Speed Tax" get for their service? Well GoVex say that the peak hour timetable will be the off-peak service with some additional trains fitted in. Going back to Sandling, as this is the example raised by GoVex the classic service will mirror the current stopping service from Ashford - so about 85 minutes between Ashford and London plus the 12 minutes from Sandling to Ashford - 97 minutes compared to 92 minutes in the peak periods now and 87 minutes off peak. I am sure that other stations will find a similar result and it will be interesting to see how much spin is placed on this aspect. Of course the argument for this "improvement" against the RPI+3% hike in fares is that government want commuters to pay for the new trains that will give no improvement to passengers who actually want to travel to Central London - and not the Borough of Camden. GoVex have collected a comparison between present service journey times (an average of course) and the ChavLine service (fastest of course). I have taken a look at comparing the ChavLine services with the 1962 timetable - the first one after completion of phase 2 of the Kent electrification (phase 1 being 1959). Some surprising figures come out if you relate travel to the area of London with the highest number of workplaces - around the Bank of England: - ______________|______1962______|_____2009_______|Change (compared to 46 years ago) Margate...... | 90(CS) .95(BOE)| 98(SP) 122(BOE)| +32 Broadstairs.. | 95(CS) 100(BOE)|100(SP) 124(BOE)| +24 Ramsgate..... |104(CS) 109(BOE)| 84(SP) 108(BOE)| - 1 Canterbury... | 80(CS) .85(BOE)| 62(SP) .86(BOE)| + 1 Dover Priory. | 95(CS) .90(BOE)| 74(SP) .98(BOE)| + 8 Folkestone C. | 82(CS) .87(BOE)| 63(SP) .87(BOE)| 0 Folkestone W. | 79(CS) .84(BOE)| 61(SP) .85(BOE)| + 1 Ashford...... | 62(CS) .67(BOE)| 37(SP) .61(BOE)| - 6 Birchington.. | 92(CS) .97(BOE)| 89(SP) 113(BOE)| +16 Herne Bay.... | 76(CS) .81(BOE)| 72(SP) .96(BOE)| +15 Whitstable... | 70(CS) .75(BOE)| 76(SP) 100(BOE)| +25 Faversham.... | 64(CS) .69(BOE)| 66(SP) .90(BOE)| +21 Sittingbourne | 54(CS) .59(BOE)| 61(SP) .85(BOE)| +26 Rainham...... | 53(CS) .58(BOE)| 51(SP) .75(BOE)| +17 Gillingham... | 49(CS) .54(BOE)| 47(SP) .71(BOE)| +17 Chatham...... | 41(CS) .46(BOE)| 43(SP) .67(BOE)| +21 Rochester.... | 38(LB) .49(BOE)| 41(SP) .65(BOE)| +16 Strood....... | 45(LB) .56(BOE)| 36(SP) .60(BOE)| + 4 Gravesend.... | 37(LB) .48(BOE)| 24(SP) .48(BOE)| 0 Northfleet... | 47(LB) .58(BOE)| 17(SP) .41(BOE)| -17 Stratford.... | Direct .14(BOE)| .7(SP) .31(BOE)| +17 (but still 14 direct)The time from North London to Bank (24 mins) was taken from the Transport for London journey planner and the 5mins walk from Cannon St and 11mins walk from London Bridge has been donated via seances. I suggest that unless GoVex do better then the commuter gloves will come off in the media when GoVex start their own spin. Unless there is a better solution for the Kent Coast service via Medway I predict trains being delayed by Cannon St and Victoria passengers who will not allow the doors to close because they don't want North London and cannot board the trains that they choose to use because they will already be full and standing on arrival due to the fact that there will be one train per hour missing to each station - and two of the Cannon St trains will also stop at Longfield - so more problems coming there. Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Nov 14, 2008 10:18:49 GMT
Not wishing to be accused of picking a destination that is local to Cannon Street station I have revisited the same table but this time made the destination - the Department for Transport, again using the Transport for London journey planner: -
______________|______1962______|_____2009_______|Change Margate...... | 90(CS) .98(DFT)| 98(SP) 133(DFT)| +35 Broadstairs.. | 95(CS) 103(DFT)|100(SP) 135(DFT)| +24 Ramsgate..... |104(CS) 112(DFT)| 84(SP) 119(DFT)| + 7 Canterbury... | 80(CS) .88(DFT)| 62(SP) .97(DFT)| +11 Dover Priory. | 95(CS) .93(DFT)| 74(SP) 109(DFT)| +16 Folkestone C. | 82(CS) .90(DFT)| 63(SP) .98(DFT)| + 8 Folkestone W. | 79(CS) .87(DFT)| 61(SP) .96(DFT)| + 9 Ashford...... | 62(CS) .70(DFT)| 37(SP) .72(DFT)| + 2 Birchington.. | 92(CS) 100(DFT)| 89(SP) 124(DFT)| +24 Herne Bay.... | 76(CS) .84(DFT)| 72(SP) 107(DFT)| +23 Whitstable... | 70(CS) .78(DFT)| 76(SP) 111(DFT)| +33 Faversham.... | 64(CS) .72(DFT)| 66(SP) 101(DFT)| +29 Sittingbourne | 54(CS) .62(DFT)| 61(SP) .96(DFT)| +34 Rainham...... | 53(CS) .61(DFT)| 51(SP) .86(DFT)| +25 Gillingham... | 49(CS) .57(DFT)| 47(SP) .82(DFT)| +25 Chatham...... | 41(CS) .49(DFT)| 43(SP) .78(DFT)| +29 Rochester.... | 42(CS) .56(DFT)| 41(SP) .76(DFT)| +20 Strood....... | 49(CS) .63(DFT)| 36(SP) .71(DFT)| + 8 Gravesend.... | 41(CS) .55(DFT)| 24(SP) .59(DFT)| + 4 Northfleet... | 51(CS) .65(DFT)| 17(SP) .52(DFT)| -13 Stratford.... | Direct .24(DFT)| .7(SP) .42(DFT)| +18
A slight change in that previous users of London Bridge would find it better to use Cannon Street and the Circle/District Line.
Actually it seems worse for ChavLine users than would have been the case 46 years ago via Cannon Street without a premium fare.
(Looking at the Southeastern 2009 website it seems as though a 6 car ChavLine train will have 348 seats but Govex say that the capacity is 508 passengers - or 46% standing - obviously why they are only planning to have buffet trollies during off peak times. A 12 car train will have 144 seats less than the current Cannon Street services formed of 375/9s. Overcrowding is now built into the dreamworld that GoVex seem to have of what comprises a good train service! The last time that this type of miscalculation occured was First Great Western and this was again due to a bad specification by the DfT - but no train company wishing to retain another franchise is going to blame them - now Southern is being offered and who currently runs that - oh yes GoVex!)
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Nov 14, 2008 12:20:26 GMT
O.V.S. You old cynic you! HOGW
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Post by trainplanner on Nov 14, 2008 13:50:25 GMT
Just been using the link suggest by my learned and deceased railwayman. Aparently, Gillingham (read Medwayw) will recieve a decrease in peak servcies to london bridge and cannon street combined of 4 trains (1 to london bridge 3 to cannon street) they have added an extra peak time train to charring cross and provided 6 extra trains to STP. It would appear on first review and i may be wrong, if so please correct me, that based on the loading capacities of the trains, the 3 trains being removed to cannon street are effectively being replaced by the STP service. Are they really expecting that many people to switch??
Peoples thoughts please
Regards TP
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Nov 14, 2008 15:53:33 GMT
Dear trainplanner
As HOGW says I am a cynic - but when you are dead you can afford to be - I don't have to travel on crowded, late uncomfortable trains any more.
Be careful how you read the runes - London Bridge is a mix of fast services and those via Dartford. You see, GoVex doesn't mind how long it takes to reach a classic terminal - they are only interested in keeping the Southern franchise so will not upset the DfT by giving adequate spin to the DfT's potential "hot potato".
Charing Cross services are all via Dartford and Cannon Street is the same mix as London Bridge. In fact the Cannon Street service will be reduced from 7 trains to 4 running at 30 minute intervals - hence my prediction of troubles at stations such as Chatham as the service will lose 840 Cannon Street seats per peak hour.
The Victoria service will be based, as GoVex say, by an off peak service overlayed by additional trains. The off peak service will not have any fast Victoria services and the DfT have specified no fast additional peak services so all services will effectively be semi fast or stopping.
GoVex will not possibly compare the average time to London in 1962 (or 2008) with the average time from 2009 as it will put the service in a bad light - but will keep pushing the unwanted service to North London.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Dec 2, 2008 16:35:41 GMT
Well here we are then. Following my posting above, I have today received a letter from John MacQuarrie, Franchise Manager concerning the "claims" on walking times from STP. I quote, "Southeastern have reviewed the information and now accept that the timings, obtained in good faith from a third party, were not correct. This is being put right in the next edition of the HS publicity material and also on the new website for December 2009". So information from a third party eh! Who do you think they are? If anyone sees this new material before me then please post what it now says. regards to all from HOGW
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Dec 2, 2008 20:59:38 GMT
I suspect that they monitor this message board as closely as we monitor them.... An interesting feature of the GoVex 2009 website are the photos - take this one for example: - Here is an advert for the joys of standing up on an overcrowded ChavLine train after paying an extortionate fare.... Is he phoning GoVex to complain? Don't forget that even though you will pay a premium price to travel ChavLine, you are still not guaranteed a seat and the rolling stock is allowed to take a 50% overload above seating capacity. ...and this person has just missed his train after it has been retimed earlier again so that when it stops at more stations GoVex can claim that it doesn't take any longer with the extra stops (but will they still quote an average time to London in 2010? - because if they don't then maybe we will)..... Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by BecsFaversham on Dec 3, 2008 7:38:10 GMT
I recently travelled to Paris from Ebbsfleet. Preferred to go from Ashford rather than spend 25mins travelling in totally the wrong direction but surprise surprise I couldn't get the right timing of trains.Any way thats a separate moan! While at Ebbsfleet I looked at the train carriage they have set up there for the new high speed line. I was totally shocked. There are less seats and more standing areas. The seats have even less padding than the current trains. I cannot believe they want us to pay a premium for that.
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Dec 4, 2008 8:50:48 GMT
Think how comfortable and trouble free your journey from Faversham to Stratford will be off-peak when you spend your spare time, and any spare money after the 35% fare hike, on your daily visits to the 2012 Olympics!! Ahem. HOGW
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