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Post by Becs Faversham on Dec 10, 2009 10:13:50 GMT
On BBC Kent website today. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8404000.stmLeft it a bit late to make a noise over this. Have they only just realised. I also keep seeing so much misinformation in the press over journey times. This week it was the property section in the Evening Standard saying medway towns as far as faversham will benefit from improved journey times - yeah right! Did anyone get the opportunity for the meet the manager at Faversham station on Tuesday? |
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Post by jumpedup on Dec 10, 2009 15:07:45 GMT
Did anyone get the opportunity for the meet the manager at Faversham station on Tuesday? No. I think it was deliberately timed (5pm-7pm) so that no London commuters (or very few) would get there in time to have their say. What I find astonishing is that there aren't clear signs making it clear that the new trains will be more expensive and how to upgrade your ticket (should you wish to). There are going to be a few people there on Monday morning who don't know what to do... |
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Dec 10, 2009 16:17:17 GMT
Can one assume that he's moaning about the trains that run almost empty non-stop West Malling - London Bridge? If so, then as harsh as it sounds - tough luck. They have been a disgraceful WASTE of rolling stock for years. At least during the daytime (I understand the peak is a different issue) they serve the snob-value minority of passengers on a "fast" and near empty service at the expense of the majority who have to crowd into shorter formation trains on busy routes because the rolling stock is being wasted on the fast to W Malling folly of a service. My medium has been on this service numerous times, and apparently a busy/bad day is when she has to share the coach with 5 other people! I fail to see how, with such low patronage, this service has been permitted to run for so many years, and presumably considered to actually even cover it's own costs, let alone make a profit! The common sense option would have been to keep it but introduce an extra few stops (Borough Green / Otford / Swanley / Mary Cray / Grove Park are the obvious stations) so there's half a chance of having it almost half full. Whilst the good people of W Malling and beyond have been spoilt for many years, the harsh reality is they will now have to share the rolling stock with those less fortunate than themselves. Going back to the bloke on the BBC website, rather than going to Victoria, he should change at Bromley South and get the Blackfriars Train, with Blackfriars being only a 10 minute walk from Cannon St. That'd save him both the time and expense of commuting to/from Victoria. Admittedly, it's less than ideal, but that's life! I almost believe there is actually an element of truth in the official report that it's a DaFT requirement to cap it. According to sources from my regular staff seances, there are reportedly a significant number of senior managers who live down that way, so they are unlikely to go and c**p on their own. Right? So rest assured, anybody who is affected can live happy that SET management are also being inconvenienced. RT |
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Dec 10, 2009 18:25:09 GMT
My Dear Mr Trevithick
I think that you have to be careful to paint a complete picture regarding the worsening of rail services from next week.
Indications are beginning to grow that the services to North London have been pushed as being the only solution for Kent beyond the point of being reasonable. Choice was always part of the original consultation whereas it it now a single solution for each area of the county.
It is true that the Ashford - Cannon Street services have been lightly used but this has to be considered alongside the half hourly fast services to Charing Cross running via Tonbridge operating at about the same times and being faster to London destinations that are in the same area. It isn't about now that is important but about next week and the changing dynamics of timetable, fares and personal journeys.
The original SLC2 specification required that Southeastern operated the Ashford services from Charing Cross as fast to Tonbridge whereas GoVex's interpretation was to stop them at Sevenoaks as well - so much for them being honestly able to say that they are simply following the contract. The fastest off-peak services to Central London will take 16 minutes longer than at present. If the service via Maidstone still operated (but to Charing Cross) then there would still be a reasonable service from East Kent to Central London in a comparable time to travelling to the same area via North London at much higher cost.
The same has been inflicted on the good people of Medway in that the fast Victoria services are going to stop additionally at two additional stations so that search engines will not pick them as quickest services because they will leave "London" at about the same time as the CTRL ones.
The proof of the pudding will be next week and like other friendly spirits who post here I will be watching from on high. Unlike poor unfortunate Kent & Medway passengers I will not be using trains at all and a number of mediums who reach out to me across the ether will use their tickets until they expire and then become car based - using them to points closer to London (to avoid Congestion Charges) as they believe that the economics of travelling from beyond the Transport for London area have changed.
Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Dec 11, 2009 8:59:06 GMT
As ever, Mr Bulleid, some excellent words of wisdom.
I must point out, whilst the bigger picture is indeed the most important one, I was specifically referring to the waste of rolling stock that is (although fortunately for not much longer) the fast service from London Bridge to West Malling. I believe this was introduced so that the good folk of the County Town of Maidstone had a fast service to London. Unfortunately, due to the lack of stops in between (despite excessive padding), they were carrying large amounts of warm air around and not passengers, whilst the people on other routes were crammed in due to lack of stock. Whilst this service definitely has it's place in the peak, the off-peak service is totally wrong.
I wonder if Govex have a "Plan B" timetable in plan (or the facilities to revert back to the existing timetable) if things go badly wrong next week?
At my last seance, I heard rumblings that there may be some services cancelled next week due to a lack of available staff. Apparently this is along the lines of the problems being experienced over at FCC in recent weeks. Can anybody confirm this?
RT
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Post by Vinnie on Dec 11, 2009 15:28:04 GMT
I did mention this a little while ago.
There is unofficial industrial action taking place from the 13th December for one week.The majority of drivers will be working to rule and therefore not working their rest days,which obviously we are entitled to do.This may cause problems to the service but i would guess only for this Sunday and next Saturday, apologies if this affects you.
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Post by jumpedup on Dec 11, 2009 15:59:30 GMT
apologies if this affects you. I'm sorry, but if you were apologetic you wouldn't hold the travelling public to ransom and sort out your industrial disputes in this manner. I fully appreciate that the RMT have a lot of power to disrupt (even if this isn't an 'official' strike), but that does not make it right. |
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Post by vinnie on Dec 11, 2009 16:09:26 GMT
It doesn't make what right, that we are taking our days off that we are entitled too?
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Post by jumpedup on Dec 11, 2009 17:08:12 GMT
My point is that I accept that action by the RMT is able to bring parts of London (or to a lesser extent Kent) to a standstill. I don't think it is right that they should be able to, just realise that the reality is that they can.
Other essential public services have restrictions against striking and I think the rules for public transport should move closer to those.
The 'taking our days off that we are entitled to' is just a nasty loophole that the RMT have come up with recently to get around the problem that they need votes, etc. to come out on 'real' strikes. You can't tell me that all the train drivers 'independently' decide to 'work to rule' without influence, etc. from the unions.
I fully accept that it is within your rights not to work overtime; I just feel it is a technicality to get around the rules.
I would also fully accept that it is crazy for the employers to have allowed a situation to develop (as in other TOCs) where there is not enough 'contracted hours' cover to operate the full service.
I don't go with the line often touted against rail strikes that 'train/tube drivers are well paid' so they should be happy with what they get. I realise that it not right.
In this modern age we should not be subject to repeated brinksmanship, threatened strikes, disruption and actual strikes.
Edit:
I don't mean to come across agressively towards train drivers, etc. - it just seems that between the staff and the employers arguing it is always the commuter / traveller who loses out [and I've had a bad afternooon!]. Regards to all drivers living and undead.
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Post by Vinie on Dec 11, 2009 18:19:19 GMT
Wow,
I think you will find 90% of drivers are in aslef and have absolutely nothing to do with the rmt.
Your other point about bringing London or Kent to a standstill or holding them to ransom is ridiculous in the last ten years southeastern drivers have been on strike once for one day,hardly string em up or sack 'em.
I can tell you that the unions have nothing to do with this, because i am in the mess rooms and your not.
Theres no nasty loophole about taking your day off,what are you doing the weekend?
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Dec 11, 2009 18:54:35 GMT
Gentlemen
I hope that we are not progressing towards an argument at this festive time of the year.
As a now deceased railwayman I have to say that it is the right of a person within the railway industry to take "days off" as "days off". It might be inconvenient to passengers but not half as bad as the timetable that will be inflicted on them from Sunday.
Up to now GoVex have hidden behind the DfT in terms of their franchise but in this case the solution is in their hands. If the train service is going to suffer because staff take their days off then it is because there are not enough staff to cover the number of duties that the plan requires - and that is their fault.
If there were enough staff then there would be no need for staff to work their rest days on any week - so would lose any payments for doing so on every week.
The real answer seems to me to talk to each other and sort it out on the basis that the company will hire the number of people actually required to operate a full service in exchange for staff agreeing to cover for sick colleagues when there is a genuine need to do so.
The sensible approach would be for staff to consider whether they would prefer to always have a "basic week" or have the opportunity to work such extra turns as the business requires. Many people outside the rail industry have contracts that simply define what the output of their job will be and they have to work for whatever hours that is needed to achieve that objective, and many do not earn more than rail staff.
Having said that, in my view it is the basic fault of GoVex that it gets itself into this position at a time when a new timetable is commencing. If I was really cynical I would suggest that GoVex are quite happy to let this happen through the initial days of the new timetable so that they can claim that all of the problems have arisen because of it, not because they got it wrong.
Yours sincerley
O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by Richard Trevithick on Dec 13, 2009 12:14:07 GMT
My point is that I accept that action by the RMT is able to bring parts of London (or to a lesser extent Kent) to a standstill. I don't think it is right that they should be able to, just realise that the reality is that they can. Other essential public services have restrictions against striking and I think the rules for public transport should move closer to those. The 'taking our days off that we are entitled to' is just a nasty loophole {snip} I can confirm, via the rumblings at my seances, that this is indeed NOT union sanctioned action by any union (RMT, ASLEF, TSSA, etc.). I can also confirm it is NOT a loophole being used by anybody. If people are booked to work their standard rostered job this week, they will be turning up to do so unless genuinely sick or rostered leave. None of this is industrial action. Drivers are simply just sick to death of poor treatment and deteriorating conditions. I'm not sure what your job is, but for simplicity, let us assume it's a Monday - Friday, 9am - 5pm type of job. Now, let us also assume that it is expected of you to work every Saturday as overtime in addition to your standard hours. You may even get in 30 mins early during the weekdays or stay an extra hour or two in the evening to help out. You do this partly as a gesture of goodwill, and also partly for the money. Of course, your employer will pay you basic money plus a little bit more, but that's it. When you have been beaten with every stick your line manager can throw at you, and when you've had conditions tightened up (with no renumeration) and when everything has been cut back to the minimum, you may feel a little bit resentful at being forced to work on Saturday. So as a protest, you withdraw your labour on this day. This is all the drivers are doing. It's not industrial action, it's not holding anyone to ransom, it's just spending some quality time at home with friends and family. Which is exactly what days off work are for (which perhaps they should have all been doing in the first place instead of working?). The core problem is, Govex have cut everything to less than the bare minimum, exactly as per the excellent post of Mr Bulleid above. By being reliant on rest day working, they are cutting their costs by a small fortune, most of which gets channeled to the shareholders. By relying on overtime, they are able to save considerable money on: 1.) The initial 12+ months of training that each driver needs (estimated at being in excess of £80K), 2.) All additional recurrent training they have to go through each year, including currency retesting, medicals every 5 years, etc. 3.) The basic salary of each additional driver needed to run the service. 4.) The pension payments, which equate to approximately 12% of basic salary (but are conveniently not paid on overtime). 5.) Additional admin staff, to process staff paperwork in the background, including the HR department. 6.) Additional local managers to manage the additional drivers. I believe when working overtime, drivers get a £45 booking on fee, plus an extra £1.50-£2/hour (or time & a tenth). When added together, this works out at barely time and a quarter on a typical 9hr turn. When you balance this against the correct staffing levels needed, we can all understand why Govex have gone down the route of cheap labour. I don't believe anyone could honestly blame them when you think how huge the savings are. However, there is a huge difference between being 1-2 drivers short at each depot, compared to the typical 5-6+ conveyed to me via my medium. Unfortuantely, it appears that they have now gone a step too far, and this has turned around and bitten them from behind. In reality, rest day working will never end on the Railway, regardless of staffing levels. This is due to people taking time off on leave, or being sick, necessary training courses and a whole host of other reasons. Management are well aware of the current situation, and have been for several months. So, with this level of foresight in mind, it will be very interesting to see how well they handle the problem over the next week. One final point, I would like to echo Mr Bulleid's concern that this thread does not fall into a full blown argument. RT |
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Post by vinnie on Dec 13, 2009 19:46:02 GMT
Dear RT,
Perhaps the words industrial action wasn't the correct terminology,but i thought it was the easiest was to describe it.
I'm sure Jumpedup is annoyed as is everybody by disruption to the service,but don't shoot the messenger.If he looks back, you asked if anyone had information about problems with the service.I thought i was giving some information that could help.
I doubt very much drivers taking their days off is going to cause too many problems,maybe a few trains cancelled,but as i said probably today and next Saturday are the days it could affect.There are some 'colleagues' who will defy the majority and work their restdays next week.
Good luck with that.
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Dec 13, 2009 20:19:39 GMT
Ladies/Gentlemen. Good evening. If I may be permitted to add my comments here. I believe we should shy away from the word "argument" in this discussion as it is a rather negative word. There will be disagreements on facts. This is inevitable in such a discussion with comments from such a broad spectrum of society, both living and deceased!
We should be pleased however to have such input and it is positive that we have both sides of a disagreement.
Jumpedup is quite within his rights to state his opinion and he feels that any withdrawal of labour for whatever reason causes discomfort to a large number of people. When one has just shelled out perhaps £3000 only to find that within a few days the reason for that spend may be withdrawn then I too would feel aggrieved. Many of us however are not "au fait" with the current working environment in SET and it is most helpful to have the other point of view which shows that behind the scenes all is not well. In this group we cannot sit around a table and thrash out an agreement but we can and must be allowed to voice an opinion. There is an old saying "jaw not war" and talking something through is the only successful way to achieve a lasting consensus of opinion.
If you travel regularly and keep your ears open, then you hear comments from drivers, conductors. station staff etc. You witness actions, or often lack of action, that makes you think, problem here, wonder why?
My opinion for what it is worth. We are currently operating on a knife edge. Money is tight. Many folk are in despair not knowing what "official" announcement will cause them grief next week. We are all tired of listening to excuses why something that we pay heavily for has not worked- and this is not just our railway system for which I have much admiration. Our leaders, of whatever political persuasion, seem to cover every problem with a sticking plaster and hope that it will heal quickly and go away.
No I don't have an answer. I do however live in hope that someday, somewhere, someone will be brave enough to stand up and speak out for the minority of us who just want to get on with our lives without PC, Red Tape and personal gain and get us back to common sense.
Is that too much to ask from a supposed civilised society?
Here endeth the lesson.
HOGW
HOGW
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paolo
New Member
Posts: 48
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Post by paolo on Dec 13, 2009 21:19:24 GMT
Well, trying to get back onto track, I must admit, I look forward to my monday morning commute with some trepidation. On the plus side, my journey will have been cut from 1hr 15mins to 1hr 5mins and starting 10 minutes earlier I will at least get to work much earlier, however, where we once had a Cannon Street service just before 8am and a Charing Cross one just after, (same pattern at 0830), this will be replaced by just the Charing Cross services at 08:02 and 08:20, no doubt by the time they reach Staplehurst, they will be packed. Not looking forward to it one little bit.  |
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