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Post by greenicing on May 8, 2009 14:13:14 GMT
Dear Mr Bullied
Thank you for all the information.
One query - do you mean that the 16.46 from Cannon St will be 4 minutes slower than Connex? I seem to remember the 16.44 (as it was then) was timetabled to leave Chatham at 17.25, but this became 17.30 under SET, often meaning 5 minutes sitting about going nowhere.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 8, 2009 15:25:41 GMT
Probably a little obscure I'm afraid - I was trying to show just how much slower the December timetable will be when compared to the very good service provided by BR.
In BR days it left at 16.39 and was fast from Chatham to Faversham, passengers for intermediate stations changing at Chatham into a Victoria service running three minutes behind from St Mary Cray Jn.
In Connex days it left at 16.44 and was two minutes quicker to Chatham (by not stopping at Rochester). It then ran slightly earlier to Faversham where it stopped for the 1645 Victoria to Dover Western Docks service to connect. After Faversham it ran to Margate thereby arriving later than GoVex have timetabled.
One case I didn't mention was that in 1962 Margate was only 86 minutes from Cannon Street whereas in December it will be 90 minutes (with 140mph running and a premium fare). How? Well it was non-stop from Cannon Street to Whitstable (in 64 minutes) another train departing 2 minutes later stopping at Chatham and stations to Faversham.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Neil
Junior Member
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Post by Neil on May 9, 2009 19:03:51 GMT
As someone who has a reasonably pleasant commute home now from Charing X to Ramsgate (17.12) I can only say I am more than glad that I am retiring before this new timetable is introduced
Getting home from the South of London seems like it will be whole lot harder
Interesting to note my morning train in - Ramsgate to London Vic (06.30) - is now going to take seven minutes longer even though it reaches Bromley South at the same time. I am assuming that means it's going to run via Peckham Rye etc
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 10, 2009 9:37:32 GMT
Dear neil
I believe that I can answer that one.
The 07.28 from Gillingham and 06.30 from Ramsgate are both allowed an extraordinary time between Bromley and London at present but this has been extended - simply due to GoVex adding a lot of recovery time to ensure that they never have to pay for late running again. This is the bad side of privately operated rail services - they are simply for profit and in no way connected with the provision of a decent public transport system. GoVia are amongst the worst via all three of their franchises. I hear that passengers using London Midland to Milton Keynes and Northampton are also now complaining about how much worse the service has become since their franchise started.
When your 06.30 service was provided by the "shadow" franchise prior to actual privatisation the service was actually 5 minnutes faster to Bromley South so your fellow passengers will have had their journeys extended by 11 minutes.
Whether it runs via the Catford Loop or up the main line there are suburban services in front - the 07.36 Sevenoaks to Kentish Town or the 08.04 Bromley South to Victoria - it simply doesn't matter which route. On looking at the latter train it is allowed 10 minutes to cover the 3.25 miles from Brixton to Victoria, a journey that 70 years ago took 5 minutes - and that was also by a private operator. My guess, and it is a guess, is that you will creep up the mainline and the Gillingham service will run via the Catford Loop - but it is a guess.
The 17.12 from Charing Cross to Ramsgate via Canterbury West simply will not exist in the new timetable as a Ramsgate train and will stop at all stations (except Pluckley) from Tonbridge to Dover and Canterbury. There is also no reasonable service from Victoria via Chatham at about that time, the services either side being at 16.57 or 17.27, both of which will be very overcrowded due to the removal of the fast 20 minute interval service.
I do wish you the very best of retirement and on looking at the drafts I believe that your timing is remarkable.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Neil
Junior Member
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Post by Neil on May 10, 2009 10:20:02 GMT
I do wish you the very best of retirement and on looking at the drafts I believe that your timing is remarkable. Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid Thank you for your kind comments here and your explanation I, too , believe my timing is pretty good and am not impressed by the timetabling from Victoria and Charing X in the evenings. As you say, there are going to be some pretty crowded trains
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Post by sibodkent on May 11, 2009 10:49:32 GMT
In reply to my complaint that there are no plans for deent bus ervces to and from Ebbslfeet other than the Fast-Track (which is anything but), and also the removal of numerous fast services from Gravesend to make way for the expensive St Pancras services that save very little time....
"
Thank you for your website comment dated 7 May.
I can appreciate your concern over the frequency of buses serving your area to enable you to get to Ebbsfleet station, but I'm afraid that I can't confirm that such arrangements have taken place with Kent Arriva buses. Your query would be better answered by them directly.
I should also explain that when we plan our timetable, the Department for Transport (DfT) decides what it must supply, including first and last trains to each station, and how long journeys should take. We then use information from Customer Service Reports and work with Transport for London and user groups, to decide which services will best suit passengers’ needs. Inevitably, the outcome is a compromise between the various - and sometimes conflicting - demands of our passengers and what we are practicably able to provide in terms of trains and train crews.
Thank you for taking the time to contact us. I'm sorry that I couldn't give you the answer you were looking for.
Yours sincerely
David Geraghty
Customer Relations Officer
Southeastern"
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 11, 2009 12:15:25 GMT
Dear sibodkent So if I understand David Geraghty correctly: - - GoVex were not responsible for what the DfT set out in their SLC2 specification but won the franchise by making the best bid against it.
- They then use Customer Service Reports, Transport for London and User Groups to modify what they were contracted to provide.
- Then, of course, they totally ignore their own profitability by staying inside the maximum journey times in the SLC2 because they are forced to extend existing running times in order to avoid trying to remove competition between ChavLine and Classic services with the result that journeys will be so much quicker (sorry profitable).
Taking just one example from the list of services that I have been examining - the classic Victoria to Ramsgate one. I choose that one because it has the weakest case for diverting passengers from their current routes: - - Journey times are extended. 1min has been added between Victoria and Bromley South, the journey by faster services to Rochester now has two extra stops so extending the time from 23mins (Connex 365 units in 2003) to 30minutes, 1min added Newington to Sittingbourne, 1min added Herne Bay to Birchington, 1min added Broadstairs to Ramsgate. The Dover portion has 1min added at Canterbury East and 5mins between there and Dover Priory.
- Stopping services between Victoria and Gillingham are halved and the remaining one is 3mins slower on the same routing.
- Victoria to Sheerness journeys presently take 80 mins and will take 95 mins.
- Staying with the Chatham Line - because there will be only 1tph stopping at Swanley the service is halved and so are connections between Tunbridge Wells, Tonbridge and Sevenoaks to Medway.
- Connecting from Southern trains via Crystal Palace? Your 5min connection at Beckenham is broken - so extending any reasonable journey to Medway and beyond by over 15mins (unless Southern change their timetable).
- Travelling from Faversham, Whitstable or Herne Bay to Sandwich or Deal - the connection doesn't happen in Thanet as trains miss each other by 4mins.
Is it not a GoVex issue, do they simply not understand that they bid for a timetable that affects many peoples' lives, cannot they conceive that by not standing their ground with the DfT they are going to make themselves more unpopular than Connex - and I never thought that I'd say that. Incidently, by extending the ChavLine trains beyond Sittingbourne (specified in SLC2) to Faversham they then incurr a 27min turnaround that would not have happened if they had stayed at Sittingbourne. Now to do that would have meant the Sheerness trains operating to Dover Priory (as per SLC2) - and if they had then the Victoria - Ramsgate services would not have had their journeys extended by another 2mins to add to those extra minutes outlined above - and the services from Sheerness would have been quicker to take London and Medway passengers to Canterbury and Dover 3mins faster. It really is a shambles. Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by Ryan Webb on May 12, 2009 18:32:47 GMT
Surely the new timetable would benefit bringing back the trains from the olden days - Sheerness to Victoria and Sheerness to Dover/Ramsgate(?) and return - purely because it would be quicker than the mess of the new planned timetable.
The Sheerness trains have been retimed, most of them earlier by up to 20 minutes, but some in the peak times have been timed later.
Personally, I think the new timetable won't work, and Southeastern and the DFT will have to spend more money and more time working on a brand new one for the change in May, or even earlier if the public made their voices and concerns heard.
Thanks, Ryan
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 15, 2009 8:54:36 GMT
Friends (Those in the Gravesend to Medway Area)
The draft timetable gives quite a reasonable off peak service from Gravesend to Gillingham departing at 18, 28, 48, 58 minutes past each hour - not exactly an exact 15 minute interval but acceptable.
From Gillingham to Gravesend, however, the service is quite simply ideotic - considering that this was supposed to have been a complete rewrite undertaken over a long period of time.
Departures are set at 20, 24, 50, 54 - 4 minutes and 26 minutes. Guess which train will operate each half hour totally empty? Guess which one will quickly be withdrawn for lack of use? Guess which one is the ChavLine train? Is this a case of constructive service reduction from 4tph back to the current 2tph?
Maybe the SRA was right in the first place in that the core service from St Pancras to Gravesend is the most profitable - and they were right because major destinations of Bluewater, Dartford and Woolwich are served by the Metro service.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by trainplanner on May 27, 2009 14:34:33 GMT
I wonder if they plan to use more of those horrible metro networker type trains on the 'classic' Ramsgate mainline routes and switch the more acceptable 2+2 type trains to lines away from the HSL, in an attempt to persuade commuters onto the white elephant? Greenicing, welcome to the message board. As i check in my various offical documents the Class 465 and 466 are only cleared to operate from victoria to gillingham, via swanley, and only as a maximum formation of 10 cars (8 cars to faversham). The running of networkers from faversham in any direction and beyond to is prohibited. Thus the chances of any networkers being used as you describe is slim, and for further evidence, look at the fuss caused when a few peak time trains were run with networker stock re electrostars, and such a fuss was made SET had to swap the stock back. Would any of our drivers care to corroberate this? Regards TP
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Post by trainplanner on May 27, 2009 14:43:02 GMT
Gentle Commuters of Kent. Having seen some of the information posted on southeastern website, and peoples experiences here, seem to suggest that the full effects of the proposed timetable are not sinking in.
What are peoples thoughts or the proposed effects on their existing commutes to work, and what do people think are likely to be the effects on the existing classic services? If you could post your views and thoughts so we can see what and where the problems may be, we would all be grateful!
Regards
TP.
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Post by jumpedup on May 27, 2009 15:26:34 GMT
I wonder if they plan to use more of those horrible metro networker type trains on the 'classic' Ramsgate mainline routes and switch the more acceptable 2+2 type trains to lines away from the HSL, in an attempt to persuade commuters onto the white elephant? Greenicing, welcome to the message board. As i check in my various offical documents the Class 465 and 466 are only cleared to operate from victoria to gillingham, via swanley, and only as a maximum formation of 10 cars (8 cars to faversham). The running of networkers from faversham in any direction and beyond to is prohibited. Thus the chances of any networkers being used as you describe is slim, and for further evidence, look at the fuss caused when a few peak time trains were run with networker stock re electrostars, and such a fuss was made SET had to swap the stock back. Would any of our drivers care to corroberate this? Regards TP Networkers must be cleared all the way to Ramsgate and Dover via Faversham as such trains regularly run from Dover to London. At present the 7.21 FAV (from Thanet) to CST and the 17:30 from CST (to Thanet) are also run with 10 car Networkers (while stock is lent to FCC).
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Post by greenicing on May 27, 2009 19:51:49 GMT
Trainplanner - thank you for that information.
I was under the impresion that some services running from Dover to London Victoria, and back again, are Networkers. The 16.42 from London Victoria and 05.49 from Dover (06.31 Faversham) are examples of this - although I've only caught both of these once in the last 6 months. These are the services immediately behind the ones I normally catch, so if I'm going to be late I now make an effort to avoid these and catch the next Thanet train.
In fact, if travelling at other times, I look for trains not originating from Dover in a effort find a little comfort - I hope I have not been labouring under a misaprehension.!
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Post by trainplanner on May 28, 2009 13:23:58 GMT
Trainplanner - thank you for that information. I was under the impresion that some services running from Dover to London Victoria, and back again, are Networkers. The 16.42 from London Victoria and 05.49 from Dover (06.31 Faversham) are examples of this - although I've only caught both of these once in the last 6 months. These are the services immediately behind the ones I normally catch, so if I'm going to be late I now make an effort to avoid these and catch the next Thanet train. In fact, if travelling at other times, I look for trains not originating from Dover in a effort find a little comfort - I hope I have not been labouring under a misaprehension.! Jumped up and Green Icing, i am happy to stand corrected on what is permitted to run and where. I suspect gauge clearance runs have been undertaken and the diagrams changed to permit these services. It may be a case of my rule book is slightly out of date, or that special measures have been put in place during the thameslink stock share, and that normal service will resume. However i believe it is generally accepted that 3+2 networkers are not good for long distance services and are only used in pixie buster circumstances. Regards TP
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 28, 2009 15:21:32 GMT
Gents
My understanding is that Notworkers may travel around the network - except to Hastings - as 10 cars but that they can only stop at stations where all coaches fit available platform lengths as they are not fitted with SDO.
There is nothing written down about any circumstance where they may or may not be used but one suspects that GoVex are fully aware of public reaction to their use on mainline services where comfort should be expected for such high product prices and where the 75mph maximum speed might have been a problem if so much slack time hadn't been placed in the timetable.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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