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Post by trainplanner on May 7, 2009 11:14:12 GMT
Ladies and Gents, Please find the link below to the Southeastern page where the new high speed timetables are available for review and comment. www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/news.php?id=259&u=index.phpPlease look at them and download the most appropriate for your services and please post your replies! Having looked at mine, i cannot see the advantage of the additional stops added into fast trains (i doubt the revenue increase would justify the stops) and i also note that the HS1 service from Faversham is an all station stopper to STP, again hardly an incentive to use it! Peoples thoughts Regards TP
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Post by NoOnions on May 7, 2009 12:09:30 GMT
As usual the SE Trains website cannot cope! I'm currently downloading my timetable at a blistering 1KB/sec!! Even while typing this it has dropped to bytes/sec! 1½ hours to download a 3.5MB file! I'm sure I'm going to be even more annoyed when I see the contents!
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Post by NoOnions on May 7, 2009 14:08:21 GMT
Well, if I have read it correctly I'm much happier than I expected to be. My morning train is still there (but five minutes earlier) and the only evening service missing from Cannon Street for me seems to be the 19:30. Blimey, not the mess I was expecting!
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Post by sibodkent on May 7, 2009 14:23:26 GMT
Ladies and Gents, Please find the link below to the Southeastern page where the new high speed timetables are available for review and comment. www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/news.php?id=259&u=index.phpPlease look at them and download the most appropriate for your services and please post your replies! Having looked at mine, i cannot see the advantage of the additional stops added into fast trains (i doubt the revenue increase would justify the stops) and i also note that the HS1 service from Faversham is an all station stopper to STP, again hardly an incentive to use it! Peoples thoughts Regards TP This has made depressing reading. Either I lose out on services and have to catch fewer, slower trains, with more stops (all Gravesend trains seem to stop at London Bridge now, and there are no Canon stret trains at all??); I have to catch a badly timed St Pancras train that ends up not saving me all that much timne for a extortionate fee OR Use the Tube and local busses instead of walking and pay even more on top of the St P Price hike. This is what I worked out: Presently I catch the 07:48 to London Charing Cross. This is being replaced by a 07:37 service, or a 08:01. This either gets in at 08:36 (4 minutes earlier than my current service), or 09:01 20 minutes later. The StP service effectively replaces the 07:52 to Charing Cross slow service. This gets me into St P at 08:13 - around 30 minutes earlier than I presently get into Charing X. I could in theory catch the 08:22 and get into St P at 08:43, but then I have no choice but to get the tube as it takes 30 minutes to walk to work from their terminal (as opposed to 16 minutes from Charring Cross at present). Evening wise my options are: 17:39 from Charing Cross getting in at 18:32 at Gravesend (presently I arrive at around 18:23) or 18:01, arriving at Gravesend at 18:58 OR St P at 17:44 arriving gravesend at 18:06 (arriving around 18 minutes earlier than my present train). The alternative is to travel via Ebbslfeet instead, which would allow me to use the following: Get bus to Ebbslfeet, catch 08:33am to StP, arrive at 08:51. Get tube to work, arrive at 9am. (ish). As per current situation. Return via Ebbsfleet: Tube to StP - get 17:18 to Ebbsfleet, arrive 17:36 and get bus to home. Will arrive home approx 35 minutes earlier. Either way, this draft shows that I will lose out either in pocket or in service.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 7, 2009 17:40:10 GMT
Friends
Without a doubt the draft December 2009 timetable is a disaster. This isn't only because GoVex have concentrated on ChavLine services (Ashford in 38 minutes from London - not 37) but because it has taken some very strange decisions that will cause a lot of overcrowding on remaining classic services.
"Managing director Charles Horton confirmed a 'small number' of services would be withdrawn" - according to the BBC website but there are wholesale reductions that I will list later.
Further peak hour services are slowed yet again if my initial calculations are correct - when checked.
The BBC website also report: - ---------- Tunde Olatunji, from the organisation, said: "Today's announcement brings us one step closer to what should in time prove to be a much better rail service for the vast majority of Kent, East Sussex and South East London passengers.
"The biggest winners will be those commuting into London from east Kent and coastal towns, where the improvement on current journey times will be very significant and the brand new trains very welcome." ---------- This seems to confirm an increasing view that Passenger Focus isn't representin passenger interests at all but are simply putting out messages for their DfT paymasters.
More coming soon.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by trainplanner on May 7, 2009 17:51:18 GMT
I noted in my detailed examination of services from my local station that the Charing cross stoppers have been removed, along with 1 of the off peak stopping services to victoria per hour. These have been replaced by two all station stoppers to STP. Effectively using the paths of the aforementioned Charing Cross trains.
THe question remains, will a standard ticket that shows "not valid Via HIgh speed 1" be valid on a javlin service as far as say gravesend? and what will that do to the not so good interior of the units given the 465s were not the best trains internally??
I am tending to agree with O.V.S Bulleid on this one, certain things do not appear to have been thought through.
Re sibods comments of missing trains, perhaps south eastern has deliberately reduced the cannon street trains to try not only to get people to use hs1 but also to reduce moves in the london bridge area, therefore increasing performance??
Peoples thoughts?
Regards
TP
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Post by chapelwood on May 7, 2009 19:27:55 GMT
I noted in my detailed examination of services from my local station that the Charing cross stoppers have been removed, along with 1 of the off peak stopping services to Victoria per hour. These have been replaced by two all station stoppers to STP. Effectively using the paths of the aforementioned Charing Cross trains. The question remains, will a standard ticket that shows "not valid Via High speed 1" be valid on a javelin service as far as say gravesend? TP I think you must be referring to Rochester? It is keeping its Charing Cross service - it's in the Metro timetable, but not in the Mainline one. So it will lose one Victoria stopping train; the Victoria fasts will call additionally at Meopham and Longfield, and it will gain 2 St Pancras trains via HS1. There is a deliberate increase in Metro (inner suburban) trains, with a reduction in Mainline trains from stations which will also be served via HS1. Cannon Street seems to be becoming increasingly a Metro terminus, and once the Thameslink Project is complete very few Kent Mainline trains will go there, the City trains going via Thameslink instead, Chapelwood
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Post by sibodkent on May 8, 2009 5:23:11 GMT
Hi All,
I have sent SET an email asking wether they propose to include free Zone 1 travel for HS1 customers in their ticket prices to compensate for the fact that most will increase their london portion of their journey to work if they use that route, thus mostly eliminating any time savings.
I rather suspect not. If they truly expect to get 35% more in a recession, then they will suddenly find they have overcrowded, overused trains on the domestic standard line instead. I cant see many people stumping up 35% to simply get to somewhere half an hour away from work and saving barely 5 minutes off their present door to door journey time.
If I am forced to pay upwards of £70 a month extra plus tube fairs, I expect them to serve breakfast and Champaign on the train every day with free papers and a foot rub!!!
Cripes, it's going to be cheaper to go to Paris soon....
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Post by greenicing on May 8, 2009 7:10:32 GMT
I wonder if they plan to use more of those horrible metro networker type trains on the 'classic' Ramsgate mainline routes and switch the more acceptable 2+2 type trains to lines away from the HSL, in an attempt to persuade commuters onto the white elephant?
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 8, 2009 7:56:54 GMT
Friends I have spent a couple of hours scanning through the draft timetable pages and three basic thoughts have emerged: - - Living at any point served by CTRL trains will involve higher fares or slower services than now.
- Overall GoVex are technically correct when saying that they are operating more services to mainline destinations but take away the ChavLine trains and they will be operating fewer mainline trains than at any time since railway privatisation.
- Many peak hour trains on both CTRL and mainline routes are slower than off-peak - so no change there.
The best timetable of all time is still 1976 for both generally faster and more frequent trains to key destinations. Given the additional time to travel on crowded tube trains from North London to final destinations then December 2009 commuter journeys will never have been worse on both measures. Let me give a few examples of fastest services by giving the fastest service in Dec2009 against the fastest of any year. Services without a premium fare: - Ashford 66mins (best 57mins in 2008) Canterbury 95mins (best 79mins in 2001) Chatham 40mins (best 38mins in 2008) Dartford 31mins (best 25mins in 1951) Deal 120mins (best 107mins in 2008) Dover 102mins (best 87mins in 1976) Faversham 70mins (best 59mins in 1962) Folkestone Ctl 91mins (best 75mins in 1976) Gravesend 46mins (best 35mins in 1951) Hastings 84mins (best 81mins in 2001) Maidstone 54mins (best 45mins in 2001) Margate 105mins (best 86mins in 1962) Orpington 16mins (standard since electrification) Ramsgate 118mins (99mins in 1976) Tunbridge Wells 43mins (best 42mins in 2008) Other strange changes have been put into the timetable. For example the final franchise requirements document issued by the SRA showed the remaining services as being non stop from London Bridge to Tonbridge but are going to stop at Sevenoaks. Fast services between Canterbury East and Dover will take up to 6 minutes more than the present timetable. Comments would be good for GoVex to read. It will help them judge how the timetable will hold up when implemented. Commuting is one issue but I'll take a view on the "all day" timetable for my next posting. Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by becsfaversham on May 8, 2009 9:33:48 GMT
oh my god. It's as bad as i feared.
Commute Faversham to Cannon Street. Morning peak.
Presently have loads: 5.20 5.58 6.14 6.36 6.58 etc
Under new timetable earliest cannon st service is at 6.08 plus it takes longer stopping Rochester Newington and Teyham. BBefore these stops were on selective services now they are on all whci adds c7mins extra overall.
Plus there are fewer services after 6.08 there is 6.43, 7.24, 7,43.
Coming home the normal cannon street services are there except for the 7.30pm plus they all have the same additional stops so taking longer.
Really not happy with this. I can walk 5 mins to my office from Cannon st, why do I want to go to St Pancras and face the tube!
madness!!!!!!!
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 8, 2009 10:37:46 GMT
Friends
Just started looking at journeys between the urban areas of Kent (plus Hastings).
Having completed Ashford's 14 links with other places, 2 will take the same time, 5 will improve (particularly by using the CTRL to North Kent) but 7 will be worse (mainly affected by the withdrawal of fast Charing Cross services).
At some point I will complete a matrix of Kent domestic journeys and will report back to you.
Whilst doing that I am also taking a look at how much the classic "all day" services to London will worsen in terms of frequency and speed. This will be important for those people who simply cannot pay the premium fare or feel that the faster journey to North London linked to tube journeys to final destinations will not give them a cost/benefit case for change of route.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by sibodkent on May 8, 2009 11:06:48 GMT
Friends Just started looking at journeys between the urban areas of Kent (plus Hastings). Having completed Ashford's 14 links with other places, 2 will take the same time, 5 will improve (particularly by using the CTRL to North Kent) but 7 will be worse (mainly affected by the withdrawal of fast Charing Cross services). At some point I will complete a matrix of Kent domestic journeys and will report back to you. Whilst doing that I am also taking a look at how much the classic "all day" services to London will worsen in terms of frequency and speed. This will be important for those people who simply cannot pay the premium fare or feel that the faster journey to North London linked to tube journeys to final destinations will not give them a cost/benefit case for change of route. Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid I took a look at the Season ticket calculator for national Rail and compared my curent route with other journeys outside of London for the same as the crow flies distance. Sevenoaks StPancras to London works out at 2,524.00 under current fairs and takes 1hr 15 minutes. Distance 22 Miles (To all other london stations, £2480). Gravesend to Charing Cross, 22miles - £2,440. Harpenden and St Pancras (22miles) is 2,960.00. Presently the cheapest montly ticket for Gravesend is the monthly Earlybird which is £148, which means no travel after 7:30am but anytime for return. In effect, a St Pancras journey would more than double that! However, it does highlight that North London commuters are paying quite a bit more than us south londoners. Ouch! That wont be the case after CTRL
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Post by Richard Trevithick on May 8, 2009 11:43:01 GMT
Having looked at mine, i cannot see the advantage of the additional stops added into fast trains (i doubt the revenue increase would justify the stops) and i also note that the HS1 service from Faversham is an all station stopper to STP, again hardly an incentive to use it! TP, I suspect it's all about trains serving key stations (regardless of whether passengers can get on or not!) instead of revenue. After all, SET doesn't care about lost revenue and does hardly anything to reclaim it back from ticketless travellers. Instead, it goes for the easy target - extortionate increases for the honest folk who buy season tickets whilst turning a blind eye to the more troublesome ticketless louts, who generally bring crime to the railway and drive honest folk onto other forms of safer/better policed transport. How many times does the guard lock himself up in the rear cab of the train without bothering to walk through and check tickets? Most of the time, especially after 7pm! Richard
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on May 8, 2009 13:04:08 GMT
In reply to becsfaversham
The Chatham Line services to Cannon Street have become a cause célèbre and your comments prompted me to take a closer look.
Taking the December 2009 timetable and following their history it is a very sorry tale: - Mornings arriving Cannon Street 06.32 - this service will be 3mins faster than when introduced. There was an 07.13 arrival which is currently 8mins slower than under BR but is to be cancelled although well used. 07.27 - is 2 minutes slower than when operated by Connex but was operated but didn't run under BR. 07.57 - is about 5mins slower than operated by both BR and Connex. 08.17 - was two trains under BR - 8mins faster from Chatham, 15mins faster from Faversham, 17mins faster from Margate in exactly the same journey time as the new 06.44 service to North London (with premium fare). 08.38 - 8mins faster from Faversham in BR days and even slower than in Connex days. 08.56 - two trains under BR - 9mins faster from stations between Margate and Faversham and slightly faster under Connex. 09.18 - was 12 mins quicker from Margate under BR and even 7mins faster from Rainham. The was also an 09.36 arrival under BR that was cancelled under Connex. Evenings departing Cannon Street 16.46 - 10mins quicker by Faversham and 9mins by Margate in BR days but 4mins faster than under Connex. 17.08 - was three trains under BR - 11mins faster to Faversham and 17mins faster by Margate. Even Connex was 7mins faster. 17.30 - 8mins faster by Rainham under BR and 18mins faster arriving at Ramsgate. 17.52 - In BR days it ran to Faversham in 59mins (with a stop at Chatham). Again, by Ramsgate it was 14mins faster. Even Connex managed to run it 11mins faster. 18.14 - was 12mins faster to Sittingbourne under BR and 12mins faster to Ramsgate. It will, though, be 11mins faster than at present. 18.46 - runs in approximately the same timings as under Connex who introduced it.
A very sorry tale of a worse service for commuters 80% if whom walk from Cannon Street and most unlikely to catch a North London service.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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