Ashford-Cannon Street

[superann]

Good afternoon
This is a petition to save the above service which will not be running shortly
petitions.number10.gov.uk/keepourtrains/
From December 2009 Southeastern trains will remove all the fast trains between Cannons Street and Ashford International. This means that prime commuting stations like Maidstone and West Malling / King's Hill will lose all their fast services, which currently run into London Bridge or Cannons Street.

If we don't stop this Southeastern will continue to erode our train service until only the most highly profitable trains are left. This will only mean extreme overcrowding on the remaining trains and will eventually marginalise Maidstone and King's Hill rendering them irrelevant.

thanks for your support

[Richard Trevithick]

Good evening,

I don't want to cause any offence, but that train is a *TOTAL* waste of time! In the peak it may well be worth keeping, but during the off peak, you can, according to my medium who has travelled on it several times in recent years, count the number of passengers using it on just 1 hand! It's primary purpose is moving large amounts of air around, and could therefore be used far more efficiently on other routes with more serious crowding issues.

Either that, or (based on the rather excessive padding it has over-generously been given), keep it running but introduce a few more station stops (Otford, Swanley, St Marys Cray, Grove Park, and possibly Lewisham) so that it has a chance to be filled closer to capacity. There is currently almost 10 minutes of padding from London Bridge to the first stop (W. Malling?), so at least 2-3 of the stations listed above could be included with the current timing without causing any delays.

I don't normally agree with any cuts to rail services, but I reluctantly feel that SET have actually got this one right - for the greater good of the rest of Kent.

Kind regards,

RT

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

My Dear Mr Trevithick I tend to agree with you about the off-peak Ashford to Cannon Street services (there is no up service until 08.32 from Ashford to Charing Cross and 09.34 to Cannon Street or down service between 16.14 and 1914 from Cannon Street). My contacts suggest that these trains are lightly used.

Why should this be? Well going to Cannon St is probably one answer as there is little city business to be had during the hours that they operate. They used to operate to Charing Cross and were well used but when the service via Ashford was improved to provide one fast and one semi each hour they were diverted into Cannon Street.

The December service will be reduced to just two stopping services from Ashford to Charing Cross in order to try and force passengers to pay more in order to travel via North London and then catch the tube into Central London - costing even more money. The demise of the Maidstone line service is to save train miles towards providing the ChavLine service.

My recommendation would be for the DfT to reconsider providing at least one fast service to Charing Cross and operate that via Maidstone. East of Ashford it should then take the place of one of the stopping services via Tonbridge. This of course is unlikely to happen as it would attract many passengers away from the ChavLine services and prove that they are an imposition without any reasonable competition based on price. Passenger complaints are only a few months away - when the timetable is finally presented.

Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid

[Richard Trevithick]

My Dear Mr OVS,

I suspect much of the reason for the light use of this service is the fact it's fast from London Bridge to W. Malling!

There are plenty of intermediate stations that would benefit from this train stopping, stations with reasonable numbers of passengers that otherwise only have the choice of Victoria or Blackfriars/Bedford. This would also have the benefit of lightening the load on the services that serve these other stations, so the load is spread across several trains on several routes.

I believe the service should be kept on the condition that it includes several other stops. Otherwise it should be replaced with a standard stopping service. Whatever happens, at worst the line should retain the same tph figures.

RT

[O.V.S.Bulleid]

I understand what you say my dear sir but I was thinking wider than the present poorly used service.

There are presently a fast and semi fast each hour from Ashford to Charing Cross operating via Tonbridge. These services are very well used at any hour. If the present Maidstone Line service was revised stopping at (from Charing Cross): -
Waterloo East (for SWT services), London Bridge (for Cannon Street), Maidstone East, Ashford, Westenhanger, Sandling, Folkestone West, Folkestone Ctl, Dover Priory, Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal, Sandwich, Ramsgate - then it would carry more long distance passengers who will no longer have a fast service via Tonbridge.

What I would suggest in accord with your posting would be that the semi fast services from Tunbridge Wells to Charing Cross (not the Hastings services - which should not stop at Orpington) should stop at Grove Park (for Bromley North) and New Cross (for East London Line).

I have to say that Swanley and St Mary Cray are to suffer from the reduction in Chatham Line services from 4 to 3tph as far as Gillingham. If the stations mention warrant more trains per hour - and I would support that - then the Chatham Line service should continue as 4tph as far as Gillingham. Assuming that one train stopped at Bromley South, St Mary Cray, Swanley and all stations then the 2nd stopped at the same stations to Swanley then Longfield, Meopham, Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham and the 2 remaining services stopped at Bromley South, Chatham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whitstable, Herne Bay, Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate and the last stopping Bromley South, Chatham and all stations to Ramsgate.

...but the service that is most likely to be implemented will be the worst service since steam days as far as convenience to passengers is concerned. By all means operate ChavLine trains, but make them compete for their own market share against a classic service provided by a different operator - or it is surely a question for the Competition Commission.

Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid

[brengineer]

These services are lightly used in the off peak, though unfortunately that is the case for some other routes as well.

However the 16.14 and 19.14 trains from Cannon Street to Maidstone are well used.

The 16.14 has upwards of 70 passengers getting off at West Malling, and it's still half full when it leaves West Malling.

A few years ago on the Victoria - Maidstone East route a four coach slow train and a four coach fast train were "combined" into a four coach slow train, leaving a 40 minute gap in services in the late afternoon
Thus standing is not unknown for the 43 minute journey between Victoria and Otford at about that time.

Its not clear how those using the currently using the train from Cannon Street be making their journeys when this train is withdrawn - maybe the roads around Tonbridge and Sevenoaks Stations will become even more congested.

Regards

BRE

[jumpedup]

Seems someone at the BBC has seen the petition:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8036851.stm

[Richard Trevithick]

Nice find, Jumped up.

The video actually shows how underused those trains are - the insinuation in the report is it's a rush hour train, yet there can't be more than a dozen people in the coach! The stock is definitely wasted on that route (UNLESS they insert additional station stops to boost passenger numbers), and is purely being run for the snob-value.

From next week he should change at Bromley South for a Blackfriars service, which is approximately a 10 minute walk from Cannon St.

May 2, 2009 20:49:24 GMT brengineer said:

However the 16.14 and 19.14 trains from Cannon Street to Maidstone are well used.

The 16.14 has upwards of 70 passengers getting off at West Malling, and it's still half full when it leaves West Malling.

Welcome to the forum, BRE.

Based on an approximate 300 seats per 4-car unit, and assuming it only runs as a 4-car Networker, the maths still don't add up for this service. Taking into account the guestimated 70 people getting off at WM and the train still being "half full", it appears that this train is barely at 75% capacity when it departs London Bridge - certainly nobody should be standing! Even if it runs as 375, which my Medium assures me has a little over 200 seats, there should still be plenty of seats available (approximately half a coach's worth of them spread throughout the length of the train). Compare this to to many other services at that time of the day where there is barely standing room, the good people of Maidstone have been pampered for far too long with this exclusive service, at the expense and detriment to people on almost every other route.


As I've said before, the service should be kept ONLY if additional station stops are included in the route to take the heat of off other services. This would be far more preferable, and more beneficial to hundreds of other people, than to totally cancel the route. However, if it is chopped, at least some of the seriously overcrowded routes will benefit.

Richard