17:30 Cannon St to Ramsgate - old stock

[NoOnions]

Dear All,

Does anyone know why the 12 car Electrostar has been removed from this service and replaced with a 10 car Networker unit until May?

I've heard rumours that the Electrostar has been lent to another TOC for a nice fat profit. If this is actually true I will be very angry. A 10% hike in my season ticket price for a reduced service!

If it is for maintenance, why not say? The staff do not seem to know and there is nothing on the SE Trains website.

Any ideas anyone?

Regards,

NoOnions

[becsfaversham]

I cannot believe that a prime time service is using these old carriages. The seats are upright, there is no padding. If you sit opposite each other knees touch, even if you are just average in size. It is enough to make me want to take a different train that gets me home 20 mins later just to get proper seats. Given how far this train goes down the line I thought that this type of train was not supposed to be used for the longer journeys.

[jumpedup]

I have seen a poster at Faversham station. This stock change applies also to the 'reverse' version of this train which is the 0717 0647 from Broadstairs to Cannon Street.

I'm pretty sure its due to the Thameslink project. At the start of the week the new services through Blackfriars began following the removal of the terminating platforms. Trains that run this route need both third rail (to Farringdon) and overhead supply (north of Farringdon).

FirstCapitalConnect have a large order of Electrostars to run the routes but they were not delivered in time (approximately 3 out of 30 only received). Various train companies have therefore had to give up rolling stock to run these trains until the new ones arrive (presumably expected by end of May) and the rolling stock for the train in question in this post must presumably be one.

Whether they've chosen the 'best' southeastern train to borrow is, of course, debatable.

[NoOnions]

Thanks for the info.

So they let a new service start, even though they must have know ages in advance that they did not have the stock available?!

FirstCapitalConnect customers get their nice shiny new service with decent trains but we SE Trains users have to suffer shortformed older trains - it's a bit rich really.

My morning 'fast' train to Cannon Street (06:34) is a Networker so also getting one back is a bit depressing! It's often worth getting the 17:50 but does make for a long working day

[chapelwood]

Mar 26, 2009 15:14:34 GMT NoOnions said:

So they let a new service start, even though they must have know ages in advance that they did not have the stock available?!

The current stage of the Thameslink Project really had to start on Monday (having been deferred by three weeks from the date previously advertised). So it was a case of running trains through between Southeastern and Thameslink, or cancelling most of the trains which used to terminate at Blackfriars. Because the extra 377 units required for the through service are late in delivery other TOCs (mainly Southern, but others including London Midland are also involved) are contributing stock, mainly by deferring heavy maintenance). Southeastern are not contributing any 375 units (so I don't know quite where the units that used to work the 1730 Cannon Street have gone), though they are contributing some Networkers, which are running as far as City Thameslink (where they can turn back in Smithfield Sidings).

[genehuntisking]

It is all part of two DfT inspired projects.

First of all in December 2008 the Brighton line timetable was recast with Gatwick Express services running through from Brighton during the peaks using ten car class 442 trains (stored at Eastleigh since going off lease in February 2007 from South West Trains).

These units were all due for a refurbishment before entering service, but this program fell behind schedule, partly due to waiting parts from various suppliers. At the December timetable change instead of the intended seven pairs of units there were three (including one unrefurbished pair).

This week there are six pairs of 442s in service with another pair to come next week. However this has also been over taken by the Thameslink project.

As part of the upgrade work the bay platforms at Blackfriars shut last week, along with the Farringdon to Moorgate branch. Now other than a handful of trains running into Smithfield sidings (north of City Thameslink) all trains have to be dual voltage.

There were intended to be 23 additional 377/5 units delivered for the start of the Thameslink work, but at present only one is in service, having started work on Tuesday this week.

So a severe shortage of dual voltage units. To cover the extra requirement for dual voltage units, there has been a huge shuffle round. Please bear with me.

Southern have been lent five 350/2 units currently being delivered for London Midland (services from Euston), and these have had to be modified to fit shoegear to allow them to run on third rail electrified lines.

However Southern have had to give up four class 319s (dual voltage) as well as eight 377/2s (also dual voltage). They had some spare 377s which were covering the non delivery of class 442s in December, but these now have to be reallocated to cover the dual voltage units Southern have lost. This still leaves them short.

To cover these three 375s have been lent by South Eastern to Southern, the units "lost" from 06.47 Broadstairs - Cannon St and 17.30 Cannon St - Ramsgate. These have been made spare by dual voltage 377/2s running on what used to be 06.09 Bearstead - Blackfriars and 06.23 Ashford - Blackfriars with corresponding evening workings.

Got that?

The amount of workings that a 10 car Networker could cover for a 12 car 375 on is limited. As Networkers do not have selective door opening, they cannot call at any shorter platforms. This rules out Pluckley, Wye- Minster inclusive, Westenhanger, Sandling and stations Martin Mill - Sandwich. With Ramsgate based drivers not signing Networkers, the amount of trains that Networkers can substitute on is limited and the trains virtually picked themselves, as it needs to be a self contained 12 car working.

The stock shuffle round is only a temporary arrangement (4, 6,8 or 12 weeks) depending on who you listen to. It depends on class 442s being refurbished and 377/5s being delivered.

The Thameslink project became hot political news and could not be postponed further (already deferred from December), and so the DfT initiated the stock cascade detailed above.

The bottom line is that what the DfT says it wants it gets. Threats about franchise renewal etc mean that it is not worth the TOC disagreeing.

It should be noted that South Eastern have not made any profit by "hiring units to another company". It was a DfT directive.

The good news is it will probably be three months at the most. Also the units that have been loaned are 375/9 units, hardly the most comfortable at the best of times. I'm sure South Eastern will be equally as pleased as the passengers to get the units back again.

The Gene Genie

[trainplanner]

Gene Genie, Thanks for such an informative post, i only suppose two things:
Firstly, i'm glad the 375/9s have gone as yes they aren't the best trains and were probably the most suitable for dealing with overcrowding (from a performance point of view).

And secondly, would it have not made sense for Southern to borrow south easterns dual voltage 375/6s first rather than go to the expense of the 350's from LM??

Your thoughts

Regards

TP

[genehuntisking]

I believe the 350s from London Midland were chosen as these are still being delivered and there is more slack in their fleet than the South Eastern fleet.

Also I believe there is an issue with DOO operation of 375/6 units. When running DOO 375/6s require monitors/mirrors where as the 377s have cameras on the unit (as the 395s do for the High Speed line).

The Gene Genie