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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Aug 17, 2009 16:10:24 GMT
Gents
Nearly correct - the 17.14 was fast to Whitstable in 1959 and there was an 18.14 that stopped at Sittingbourne taking 67 minutes to Whitstable.
At that date the main market was Thanet and the service basically reflected the steam train service that preceeded it - the year before it took 73 minutes. The electrified 16.44 and 17.44 services reached Faversham in 59 minutes after the Chatham stop - which was only 39 minutes from Cannon Street. Thanet is starting to regenerate and I am now getting mediums reporting that commuting is starting to increase again.
The 17.14 service wasn't a flyer - it was part of a service calculated to convey the correct proportion of passengers to their destination in the quickest time - and the market of the time was based in the City rather than West End.
My argument, I believe, still stands in that the need to operate a fixed 20 minute (or as it will become 30 minute) sequence isn't written in law (although specified by civil servants who have made many mistakes before in their specifications - remember Bristol commuters having a fares strike?) There is nothing that prevents the service being revamped so that one train per hour is much faster to the longer distance destinations and the others stop at more stations - i.e. there can be two departures at 2 minute apart from London - the first fast to say Faversham and the second stopping at Medway and stations to Faversham. At the other half hour there would be one train stopping at the major stations only. That is just an example which can be argued but if there are three train loads then there is opportunity to be intelligent in order to give each group of passengers a better deal.
I've quoted the 1959 timetable but there was another big change in 1975 when the West End had developed into another workplace area although the City was still important - as it is today if you examine workplace statistics. In 1975 there were fast trains from Victoria at 17.00, 17.20 and 17.42 with various stopping patterns. From Cannon Street there were fast trains at 17.00, 17.14, 17.33 and 17.44. They operated in a skip stop pattern so that usually, if the train didn't stop at your station then you could change and pick up a connection within 3- 4 minutes.
North London services could be part of that mix but for most North Kent commuters, where there is no gain from going out of your way, simply to pay a higher fare than it might be better to stop them at stations such as Newington and Teynham and terminate them at Faversham - then speed up the classic services.
The December timetable is probably the worse one that I have ever seen - and it breaks the promises made by the SRA who stated quite clearly in their consultation that existing services would not be cut but the new services would be added to create new travel opportunities. It is quite clear that they have failed yet again by breaking their own promises. Luckily I don't use GoVex trains or I really would be fuming.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Sept 8, 2009 13:16:56 GMT
Friends The BBC have published an item on the CTRL preview service: - news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8241827.stmInteresting in that the people who have given interviews seem pleased - but seem to be in relatively empty coaches and were not asked in which area their final destination was located. BBC Kent have done a very good job in reporting GoVex media releases but have failed to look at the effect of the CTRL services on classic routes or given any practical experiences of the journalists from the time of arriving in North London to a final destination - perhaps the BBC in Aldwych might have been useful. They have included interesting news that a number of passengers have taken their cycles onto the trains in order to cycle from North London to their destinations. No reports on passengers being prevented from taking non-folding cycles on those services or reports from the BBC on the overcrowded access to the underground station though - which suggests that the news room is largely using GoVex media releases. Is there any independent experience please as my earthly contacts suggest that there still seems to be no change in the number of passengers using Charing Cross and Cannon Street services? This will be important to the development of the plan for Kent's railways as Notwork Rail are placing the solution of overcrowding in the hands of more CTRL services in their consultation document - now closed for comments. Presented news seems to now promote using North London as businesses will move into the area - however - if one searches out regional forward planning of workplaces then Westminster and the City of London will continue to be the council areas providing the largest proportion of commerce within Central London. Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by sibodkent on Sept 8, 2009 18:58:51 GMT
Friends The BBC have published an item on the CTRL preview service: - news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8241827.stmInteresting in that the people who have given interviews seem pleased - but seem to be in relatively empty coaches and were not asked in which area their final destination was located. BBC Kent have done a very good job in reporting GoVex media releases but have failed to look at the effect of the CTRL services on classic routes or given any practical experiences of the journalists from the time of arriving in North London to a final destination - perhaps the BBC in Aldwych might have been useful. They have included interesting news that a number of passengers have taken their cycles onto the trains in order to cycle from North London to their destinations. No reports on passengers being prevented from taking non-folding cycles on those services or reports from the BBC on the overcrowded access to the underground station though - which suggests that the news room is largely using GoVex media releases. Is there any independent experience please as my earthly contacts suggest that there still seems to be no change in the number of passengers using Charing Cross and Cannon Street services? This will be important to the development of the plan for Kent's railways as Notwork Rail are placing the solution of overcrowding in the hands of more CTRL services in their consultation document - now closed for comments. Presented news seems to now promote using North London as businesses will move into the area - however - if one searches out regional forward planning of workplaces then Westminster and the City of London will continue to be the council areas providing the largest proportion of commerce within Central London. Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid I cant tell you if there was any reduced footfall at Cannon street or Ch X, however I can tell you that the ashford/dover/canturbury trains are nearly at capacity. THough nobody is standing yet, it wont be far off it if Ebbsfleet gets any more passengers, as the train that arrives there is now heaving. The Ebbsfleet only services are reasonably patronised, but by no means full. You an easily get a section all to yourself without having to wander far down the train. Having chatted to and overheard most peoples conversations, the people that have continued to use the service all work within 15 minutes travel of St P - whether walking, by bus, or the tube. The real complaints are with Ebbsfleet and the severe lack of any pedestrian access or decent bus services. I have seen a number of people with bikes, but they are mainly folding bikes. Incidentally, you can completely avoid the overcrowded entrances to the tube by entering down the St Pancras entrance - which is hardly ever congested. For some reason only the kings cros entrance is crowd managed. I've often sailed through when people are packed 20 deep at the Kings Cross entrance. It's less than 15 minutes by bus from just outside St P to the west end too - I travel by bus from outside holborn tube station to the top of Euston road - then walk to St-p to avoid the round-the-houses bus detour around Euston. All in all I can leave work at 16:40 and be comfortably on the train waiting to leave at 17:05. A few of the people I have spoken to or overheard are testing all the alternative routes to their work to see which is most reliable.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Sept 8, 2009 23:42:42 GMT
Thanks sibodkent, very interesting.
I believe, from memory, that you travel from the Gravesend area so must join trains at Ebbsfleet - so joining either the 07.08 or 07.33 services which leave Ashford before 07.30. When the full service starts you should be better off as there will be two services starting at Ebbsfleet about the same time.
It is also interesting that you use the term "continue to use the service" which suggests that some have reverted to classic routes.
If nobody is yet standing then one does suspect that Ebbsfleet (and probably Gravesend) will become the major stations on the route - as predicted by the SRA when consulting on services - the original fast Southern Region services from Gravesend to Central London being withdrawn some time ago. Services beyond were considered, at the time, to offer a lower ROI.
It is also interesting in your noting that most people using the service are travelling to destinations within 15 minutes of St Pancras which may explain why my reports suggest that there is no noticable reduction in Charing Cross and Cannon Street use for mainline trains as the reduction may then be from Gravesend services via Dartford - again supporting the SRA consultation.
On the whole it seems very good for you and I thank you for passing on your experiences in travel from Holborn but notice that you do not use the Piccadilly Line for some reason. Can I ask why please as it would seem obvious to many in order to gain a straight connection.
Are there any other user reports please?
(Again, many thanks)
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by sibodkent on Sept 9, 2009 8:17:59 GMT
It is also interesting that you use the term "continue to use the service" which suggests that some have reverted to classic routes. I overheard several people saying they were 'giving it a try' rather than expecting to continue to use it, and one person was intending to do a week on and a week off to see how it compares journey wise. I do indeed use the Piccadilly line. The entrance through St Pancras offers a through tunnel into Kings cross tube, straight to the escalators to the Piccadilly line. The alternative is to cross through the subway tunnel under the road, saving a few minutes waiting for traffic and waiting at the crowded Kings X tube entrance. Also there are plenty of busses that go to Holborn in under 15 minutes, which is approximately how long it takes to get there by pancras tube (taking into account transit from surface to sub level and back). The 59, 91 are direct, or if you walk to the the stop just outside St church, there is a stop with about 4 services that are direct to Holborn and Aldwych. The buses are rarely crammed full and rarely get stuck in traffic.
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Post by genehuntisking on Sept 9, 2009 8:49:44 GMT
I do indeed use the Piccadilly line. The entrance through St Pancras offers a through tunnel into Kings cross tube, straight to the escalators to the Piccadilly line. The alternative is to cross through the subway tunnel under the road, saving a few minutes waiting for traffic and waiting at the crowded Kings X tube entrance. Also there are plenty of busses that go to Holborn in under 15 minutes, which is approximately how long it takes to get there by pancras tube (taking into account transit from surface to sub level and back). The 59, 91 are direct, or if you walk to the the stop just outside St church, there is a stop with about 4 services that are direct to Holborn and Aldwych. The buses are rarely crammed full and rarely get stuck in traffic. From my days commuting to the West End (over 20 years ago) I would suggest that tube journeys don't start to gain until the journey is over the 15 minute mark. My memory of working up Tottenham Court Road (between Goodge St and Warren St tube stations) was that it took me 17 minutes to walk from Charing Cross, while if I got straight on a tube I could do it in 14 minutes. Similarly a friend who worked at Oxford Circus found it quicker to walk from Charing Cross. Had things such as Oyster been available then, I may well have taken the bus too, but this was in the days when BR and London Transport were only just getting to grips with the idea of through ticketing. Anyone remember the tube "yellow" tickets which were the only ones that opened the automatic gates? If memory serves me correctly, at the time a single zone 1 ticket was 40p! On a different note, I understand that the High Speed Preview service from Ashford had led to a number of people "railheading", by driving to Ashford, and South Eastern were waiting to see if these people now started joining at their local station, instead of driving to Ashford, so weren't expecting a huge leap in people using the Preview service. I also believe that there is a weekend service in the offing soon. With the 29th (and final) unit now delivered, and units completing testing there is more and more stock becoming available, which was one of the things that held back the Preview Service. For the number crunchers, the original four Preview units (2, 3, 4 and 5) have been stopped for a modification, and are now starting to become available, to supplement the already modified units currently working the Preview service. Changing the subject again, I understand there are some 60mph speed restrictions in place between Ashford and Headcorn due to "Condition of track" following weeks of reports of rough rides. Coming up to six years since Eurostar moved over to the High Speed line. Coincidence? The Gene Genie
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Post by jumpedup on Sept 9, 2009 9:59:37 GMT
Anyone know whether they are going to be able to run any 'preview' services on the Gravesend/Chatham route.
One imagines it is going to be harder to fit these into the existing schedules on a line which (certainly between Gillingham and Strood) is pretty busy already.
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Post by sibodkent on Sept 9, 2009 12:39:32 GMT
Anyone know whether they are going to be able to run any 'preview' services on the Gravesend/Chatham route. One imagines it is going to be harder to fit these into the existing schedules on a line which (certainly between Gillingham and Strood) is pretty busy already. There is plenty of space between 08:08 and 08:40 that they could run a HS1 train from Chatham via Gravesend. I've posed the same question to SET via their feedback page so i will let you know what they say.
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Sept 9, 2009 13:48:37 GMT
The Chatham Line would have been my choice for the current phase of preview as it gives the least saving in time (and for many it will be negative). Given the financial situation and GoVex's need to "grow the business" then I would have thought that the initial takeup in Medway would be a key measure for future business viability.
Rail-heading has been with you for some time as the service has steadily got worse. In my day the Southern stopped peak hour trains at some local stations specifically to avoid it as it encouraged house purchase within the area and avoided having to operate an additional local service to what was provided off-peak - and we were not adverse to investing in building to grow the local commuter market and make use of train capacity that might otherwise not be fully sold at those times of the day.
I suspect that rail-heading will continue to key junctions such as Faversham where the journey from home to that location is now quicker by virtue of road widenings and such a poor through rail service that is now slower - and in future faster trains will not conveniently serve country stations and junction car parks will suffer from insufficient capacity and, in some places such as Canterbury, increased congestion (in the unlikely case that there is enough places anyway).
On the other hand some people will endeavour to use their cars for longer distances in order to use stations with lower season ticket prices - having already paid their road tax and insurance and must leave their car somewhere during the day. Widening of the A2 might encourage some to seek out Meopham and catch a train from there - once the fast ones are withdrawn and additional recovery time is added, the journey to/from Meopham will be faster by road. There will most likely be others.
On the Ashford side it is less likely as the M20 is routed closer to Maidstone than Staplehurst and passengers will be more likely to simply "sit it out" on the even slower trains.
On the bright side the opening of Ebbsfleet may see the housing market develop more quickly as people who work in North London look for a good deal - perhaps vacating routes from north of London.
Yours sincerely O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by chapelwood on Sept 9, 2009 15:33:21 GMT
Anyone know whether they are going to be able to run any 'preview' services on the Gravesend/Chatham route. One imagines it is going to be harder to fit these into the existing schedules on a line which (certainly between Gillingham and Strood) is pretty busy already. There is plenty of space between 08:08 and 08:40 that they could run a HS1 train from Chatham via Gravesend. While there is probably a path through Gravesend, I think it would be very difficult to find one through Rochester Bridge Junction at a time which would be suitable for a Preview Service. Paths have been found in December, but only by completely rewriting the Southeastern timetable.
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Post by sibodkent on Sept 16, 2009 9:58:42 GMT
There is plenty of space between 08:08 and 08:40 that they could run a HS1 train from Chatham via Gravesend. While there is probably a path through Gravesend, I think it would be very difficult to find one through Rochester Bridge Junction at a time which would be suitable for a Preview Service. Paths have been found in December, but only by completely rewriting the Southeastern timetable. South-eastern have confirmed no plans to extend the preview service. On a lighter note, they are extending the 06:41 from Dover to St P to 12 coaches, from next monday. It's crammed at the moment, so no wonder. Not standing only yet. Also I want to say a public thank-you to the staff at Ebbsfleet and on the said train above for letting me through and onto the train despite me being there with seconds to spare. I was running late thanks to the dreadful fast-track service being 5 minutes late, but the staff let me through the barrier quickly, and when I got to the train, the unlocked the doors so i could get in (they lock them a minute or so early to get going swiftly).
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Post by moggycat on Sept 22, 2009 16:00:09 GMT
I used the preview service from Folk West today 06.57 (I think that was the time). I must say that it was excellent and the staff were friendly. It was very quick and comfortable. What spolt it was the underground journey to Tower Hill. It was not too bad but probably added 20 mins including waiting for the tube. Total journey time about 20 minutes less. Not really worth it in my opinion. I really do think I will have to use it from December as the alternatives for me are so poor - - Reduced number of services to/from Cannon St - No direct train to Folkestone. I think there is only one evening train at about 6.30pm which is too late. In the morning there were two on the draft timetable at similar times to existing but the local paper claims that one of these (about 06.39) has now been switched to Charing X because of protests at cutting back all the CX trains. - Those trains that do run (where I will have to change at Ashford morning and evening) will take much longer as they are stopping them everywhere. - All trains will be more crowded because they are fewer in number and stop everywhere (our current 'fast' one does not stop at the villages but all those passengers will be crammed in from December) I know all these issues have been aired before. I have complained till I am blue in the face. Nothing was done. I have no option. South Eastern should never have been allowed to treat paying customers in this way. St Pancras is very good but not for anyone who can currently walk to their workplace from CX, Victoria, Cannon St etc. I am now awaiting the next shocker - the double whammy of having to travel to a destination miles away from where I work - and pay huge amounts more for the privilege. Does anyone know when the fares will be announced? Does anyone know when the 'final' timetable will be published? More specifically - does anyone know exactly what 'amendments' have been made to the draft timetable due to pressure from local authorities etc? In my case the CX passengers seemed to have shouted loudest and got their commuter train reinstated and our Cannon St one has been scrapped. Is this logical? ?
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Post by moggycat on Sept 22, 2009 16:15:28 GMT
Just in response to earlier questions re numbers of people using Cannon St - I would say that my morning train which arrives at CSt at 08.19 is now as overcrowded as ever - having thinned out slightly for the summer holiday period. At the back vast hordes of people get on at Tonbridge and it is standing room only from Sevenoaks.
Also going home 17.44 seems just as crowded as ever.
This morning when I got 6.57 from Folk West to St Pancras I did not recognise any of the usual Cannon St crowd. In fact I did not recognise anyone which was a surprise - so I assume they are sticking to the usual train. Some passengers had suitcases and looked like occasional travellers.
The train was 12 coaches and the back was empty all the way but seemed to be busier at the front. I think it is 6+6 and the pointed noses were joined together in the middle so I don't think you can walk from end to end (sorry I don't know the technical terms).
Coming home to Folkestone on the preview service from St P is not an option for me because one train is too early (4.30) and the other too late (6.30ish) - what bright spark devised those times? Also I cannot face the tube after a day at work. Much better options if you live in the Canterbury direction (do the timetable planners live there I wonder?).
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Post by genehuntisking on Sept 23, 2009 16:38:14 GMT
Coming home to Folkestone on the preview service from St P is not an option for me because one train is too early (4.30) and the other too late (6.30ish) - what bright spark devised those times? Also I cannot face the tube after a day at work. Much better options if you live in the Canterbury direction (do the timetable planners live there I wonder?). I was going to suggest changing at Ashford off 17.37 St Pancras - Ramsgate, but of course you arrive in the huge gap between 18.05 and 18.59 from Ashford heading towards Dover. Perhaps you should get in touch with South Eastern and ask if they could arrange for 17.37 St Pancras to split at Ashford with part for Ramsgate via Canterbury and part for Dover. Far be it for me to put words in your mouth, but I think you'll find there is a second driver booked to ride passenger St Pancras - Ramsgate on the 17.37 St Pancras. Would it be a huge leap of faith for him to split the train at Ashford and take part to Dover? After all until last week he was booked to put one unit in the yard at Ashford.... Anyway something for you to think about. The Gene Genie.
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Post by moggycat on Sept 24, 2009 8:40:36 GMT
Gene many thanks for your reply. I will think about writing to ask them. Their timetable planning is appalling and as I said I think the planners must have an affiliation with Canterbury as they have much better options for the preview and have always had much better options for Cannon Street. By this I mean more trains and running at convenient times to fit with normal 9-5 working pattern. In my case from Folkestone nothing is convenient - either too early or too late. Years ago the Folkestone/Dover options were more frequent and at better times. I do wonder why as there seem to me fewer poeple travelling from the Canterbury area from what I have seen on the trains that split.
If our local paper is cottect then there will be mayhem on the CX CSt service from December as it seems that hey are cramming everyone on to one train (to CX) in the morning (by that I mean to enable people to be at work by 9am). The alternative is to change at Ashford ad get - you've guessed it - a train which comes from Canterbury.
This is all very vague so it is important that they communicate timetable amendments as soon as possible - if you are reading this Southeastern timetable planners.
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