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Post by Richard Trevithick on Jun 11, 2008 21:25:19 GMT
Good evening, Now here's yet another pearl of wisdom from the mouths of our masters! Notwork Rail claims it will need to spend £50million upgrading Waterloo International because, and here comes the quote, "the platforms had not been designed to cope with commuter services". Is it me? HOGW Is this regarding returning the International section to domestic use? If so, it's totally understandable as the steps/doors on a Eurostar are at a different height to domestic trains in this country. At the very least, they'll have to be raised by a few inches. I suspect that Mr Bulleid can provide far better technical information about this than I can... However, I fail to understand how they figure out this will cost £50M! I assume part of this figure will also be spent on doing something with the old departure and checking in halls, but, *THAT* much money?! Somebody is having a very unfunny joke at our expense! Angry regards, Richard T |
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Jun 12, 2008 7:18:14 GMT
..and it's good morning from him. Yes sir you are correct in your assumption. The Office of Rail Regulation says NR asked for £54million to arrange for the five empty platforms to accept commuter services. An "unofficial" estimate for the work was £5million so NR "compromised" and accepted they could do it for £50 million. Perhaps the costs of disposing of "mothballs" is high !!!
HOGW
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Post by O.V.S.Bulleid on Jun 12, 2008 19:36:41 GMT
My Dear Mr Trevithick
I do appologise for not replying earlier but I was trying to console the M. Chapelon of the Paris - Orleans Railway who copied locomotive design from the US and found that they used twice as much coal as French equivilents. He is still terribly upset by the whole business.
He did help me with your request for information about Waterloo International.
First thing to say is that international trains, anywhere in Europe, have to conform to certain criteria and two of these are the UIC gauge for vehicle bodies and within this the height of platforms. The UIC standard is 760mm above rail height whereas the UK standard is 915mm. This is the reason for requiring the platform height at Waterloo to be changed and one of the reasons why platforms 3 and 4 at Ashford cannot be used by domestic services (even if the immigration requirements could be met).
The cost of £1m per platform has been quoted in the media and this seems to me to be a high quote for a station that has no use and therefore no costs for disrution to meet.
My guess, and it is a guess, is that Notwork Rail might like to seal off the low level Eurostar offices and shops and turn these into rentable space and also construct a floor over the old check-in area to provide a new barrier line - so the cost might include work on which Notwork Rail (or the Government) might then make a profit.
Another thought is that the 18 car platforms might be trimmed back to change the points and crossings in the station throat to allow tracks to be slewed to allow other platforms to be extended. There may be more than meets the eye - but it is still expensive.
Readers may be interested in another fact - Network Rail have suggested that one option for dealing with Southeastern mainline services during the rebuilding of Borough Market Junction is to run them to Waterloo International. Perhaps thought should be given to this for some 2009 peak hour services via Fawkham Jn and the CTRL to Ashford and beyond.
Finally a few facts on platform lengths: -
St Pancras Platforms
International.. 433m
Domestic....... 295m
Stratford
International.. 410m
Domestic....... 295m
Ebbsfleet
International.. 410m
Domestic....... 295m
Ashford
International.. 412m
Domestic....... 260/265m
The present lengths at Waterloo International are: -
Platform.. 20 - 396m
Platform.. 21 - 402m
Platform.. 22 - 411m
Platform.. 23 - 421m
Platform.. 24 - 428m
Yours sincerely
O.V.S.Bulleid
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Post by moggycat on Jun 13, 2008 8:43:15 GMT
Rant rant rant....
We have had problems with the 17.44 CSt - Folk Notworker going home at least twice this week. Yesterday it was late getting into CSt and 2 back coaches out of action. This type of train is really not suitable for such an overcrowded long journey. I have noticed when it chugs slowly and stops at stations every few minutes (e.g. between Ashford and Folkestone) it does not get noisy, rattle or bump and it is possible to listen to music or hold a conversation with the person sitting opposite and ones bones do not feel as though they have been shaken up. This only happens when it goes at speeds in excess of about 5omph. Why can't they provide us with a proper train? Everyone else on a similar route has one. I am fed up with asking. If they don't have enough stock THEN GET SOME MORE out of the huge profits you make.
Re comments about trolleys. Hastings trains from (and I think to?) CSt have them. These trains are not nearly as overcrowded as those going via Paddock Wood, Ashford to Dover/Canterbury. Again I have suggested they stop the Hastings commuter trains to/from CSt at Sevenoaks or Tonbridge to balance the overcrowding. Currently the Ashford trains have the double overcrowding whammy of Sevenoaks and Tonbridge. But of course no one listens to me. I think there must be a number of railway executives who live in the TWells Hastings area as their trains and services ar far superior. Also of course they have been deliberately running down our 'service' to Ashford and beyond for some years now to make St Pancras seem attractive.
And finally.... another overcrowding issue this morning. 06.39 Folk to CSt only 8 coaches instead of 12. At least it is a proper train for long distances but is supposed to be the most overcrowded service in the mornings. Surely it would be better to axe 4 coaches from a less crowded train? Each day this week on that train the driver has issued a pleading message as it heaves into its destination to 'bear with me while there is a short delay before the doors open'. Today (remember about 1,500 people stuffed into 8 coaches) - eventually he gave up and said ' can't do the doors so please pull the handles'.
What's more important? Approx 1,500 fare paying 'customers' late for work or one man having to re program the computer?
Have to say I felt sorry for the poor chap. I blame the so called management for all the problems we put up with.
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Post by genehuntisking on Jun 16, 2008 16:02:02 GMT
Rant rant rant.... This type of train is really not suitable for such an overcrowded long journey. I have noticed when it chugs slowly and stops at stations every few minutes (e.g. between Ashford and Folkestone) it does not get noisy, rattle or bump and it is possible to listen to music or hold a conversation with the person sitting opposite and ones bones do not feel as though they have been shaken up. This only happens when it goes at speeds in excess of about 5omph. Why can't they provide us with a proper train? Everyone else on a similar route has one. I am fed up with asking. If they don't have enough stock THEN GET SOME MORE out of the huge profits you make. Re comments about trolleys. Hastings trains from (and I think to?) CSt have them. These trains are not nearly as overcrowded as those going via Paddock Wood, Ashford to Dover/Canterbury. Again I have suggested they stop the Hastings commuter trains to/from CSt at Sevenoaks or Tonbridge to balance the overcrowding. Currently the Ashford trains have the double overcrowding whammy of Sevenoaks and Tonbridge. But of course no one listens to me. I think there must be a number of railway executives who live in the TWells Hastings area as their trains and services ar far superior. Also of course they have been deliberately running down our 'service' to Ashford and beyond for some years now to make St Pancras seem attractive. And finally.... another overcrowding issue this morning. 06.39 Folk to CSt only 8 coaches instead of 12. At least it is a proper train for long distances but is supposed to be the most overcrowded service in the mornings. Surely it would be better to axe 4 coaches from a less crowded train? Each day this week on that train the driver has issued a pleading message as it heaves into its destination to 'bear with me while there is a short delay before the doors open'. Today (remember about 1,500 people stuffed into 8 coaches) - eventually he gave up and said ' can't do the doors so please pull the handles'. What's more important? Approx 1,500 fare paying 'customers' late for work or one man having to re program the computer? Have to say I felt sorry for the poor chap. I blame the so called management for all the problems we put up with. Some interesting thoughts and ideas there. Not quite sure where the "far superior" service on the Hastings line comes from. In my opinion the Hastings line suffers far more from infrastructure failures than ever the Mainline towards Ashford does. A legacy I'm afraid of the electrification in 1986 being done on the cheap. From observation, when they arrive at Tonbridge most trains from the Kent Coast in the morning have seats on arrival at Tonbridge (albeit towards the rear of the train), where as Hastings trains are full after High Brooms. Yes there are seats on the Tunbridge Wells starting trains, but that is why they call at places such as Chelsfield. If only someone had the foresight to get more 375s. Networkers out into the countryside is a legacy of some warped Connex idea. I've said before that if it was down to me, I'd buy more 375/376 variants, and hand back the 465s to the lease co. But this would mean not getting a return for 20 years and more, where now "long term vision" is thought to be looking at what happens in three years time. With the Southern franchise up for grabs again soon (and it hardly seems long since they were taking over), there is NO long term vision. Agreed that trains are getting slower, but this is more to please the bean counting number crunchers. Hastings line trains are now as slow as they were 25 years ago before the line was electrified. It isn't just the mainline to The Coast. If you want a prime example of how slow trains are, I would recommend catching 17.34 Charing Cross - Margate. Now booked to follow 17.38 Cannon St - Hastings, it has so much slack time in the London area, it often gets away through Hither Green before the Hastings train, and regularly races into Tonbridge 5 or 6 minutes early, and the Hastings train still follows through on time. Finally on to last Friday morning. Unfortunately late on Thursday evening there was an eight coach train which had to be taken out of service at Ashford with a serious door fault. The stock currently still sits at Ramsgate depot (having been worked over empty) for a full investigation to what caused the fault, and is unlikely to return to service for the rest of this week. It does however burst the myth that the train companies put profits before safety. While one replacement unit could be eked out overnight, unfortunately something had to go short. It is unusual, as often if there is a shortage it will be out of a Ramsgate starting train, rather than Ashford. Maybe you could tell us the last time this particular train went short in the morning? In an ideal world there would be no trains short, but my head hurts from beating it against that brick wall far too often. However as it is Meet The Managers at Cannon St on Thursday, anyone with a perverse sense of justice might run any shortages in that direction on that day, one of the few times The Engineering top brass stick their heads above the parapet. We shall see.... The Gene Genie. |
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Post by lordbarne on Jun 17, 2008 15:22:30 GMT
If only someone had the foresight to get more 375s. Networkers out into the countryside is a legacy of some warped Connex idea. I've said before that if it was down to me, I'd buy more 375/376 variants, and hand back the 465s to the lease co. But this would mean not getting a return for 20 years and more, where now "long term vision" is thought to be looking at what happens in three years time. With the Southern franchise up for grabs again soon (and it hardly seems long since they were taking over), there is NO long term vision. More 375s maybe, but please spare me any more 376s. They must have been designed by a committee!! Hard seats, poor lighting and claustrophobic. That is to say nothing about the poor ventilation, Digital Doris and noise every time the doors open and close. I go to great lengths to catch services formed of 465/466 stock. |
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Post by genehuntisking on Jun 17, 2008 17:43:38 GMT
If only someone had the foresight to get more 375s. Networkers out into the countryside is a legacy of some warped Connex idea. I've said before that if it was down to me, I'd buy more 375/376 variants, and hand back the 465s to the lease co. But this would mean not getting a return for 20 years and more, where now "long term vision" is thought to be looking at what happens in three years time. With the Southern franchise up for grabs again soon (and it hardly seems long since they were taking over), there is NO long term vision. More 375s maybe, but please spare me any more 376s. They must have been designed by a committee!! Hard seats, poor lighting and claustrophobic. That is to say nothing about the poor ventilation, Digital Doris and noise every time the doors open and close. I go to great lengths to catch services formed of 465/466 stock. Perhaps I should have clarified that a bit better. When I say more 376s, what I mean is a version that is fully compatible and able to attach to 376s, but with a different interior, and maybe a toilet too. I think you'll find that owing to Disability requirements you are stuck with automated announcements and beeps etc. The Gene Genie |
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Jun 27, 2008 15:12:04 GMT
Well lads and lassies all, I am off this weekend to savour the delights of travel on NXEC. KX -Newcastle for a wedding(not mine I hasten to add) and return for a very reasonable fare, much less than the cost of petrol for the old car. I look forward to the delights of travel in proper trains with proper seats and proper refreshments. Au revoir mes amis. I shall return refreshed.
HOGW
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Post by chapelwood on Jun 27, 2008 17:13:05 GMT
Well lads and lassies all, I am off this weekend to savour the delights of travel on NXEC. KX -Newcastle Good thing you weren't travelling yesterday evening Thursday 26th. They had a major signal failure at Retford, and the trains that did run were very overcrowded, and anything up to 4 hours late. |
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Post by heofgreatwisdom on Jul 2, 2008 17:52:40 GMT
I want to say this very, very quietly. It was bliss travelling in the "quiet" coach on the NXEC services to and from Newcastle. All services on time, comfortable but totally packed even to the lying on the floor stage.
HOGW
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Post by trainplanner on Mar 27, 2009 17:54:18 GMT
He of Great Wisdom,
In relation to your 50 million comment, the international station was designed to accomodate international trains, it's not the station per se that is the issue it is the way the tracks were laid out that is the issue. International trains have long turnarounds and leave infrequently, suburban stock is the opposite. thus the track layout needs modifying to enable it to work better and this is what costs.
Why didn't they design the track layout with this in mind, probably as they thought Waterloo would always be a high speed terminus.
Regards TP
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Now here's yet another pearl of wisdom from the mouths of our masters! Notwork Rail claims it will need to spend £50million upgrading Waterloo International because, and here comes the quote, "the platforms had not been designed to cope with commuter services". Is it me?
